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    W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

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    Lord Kai

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    W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:54 pm

    Update June 2016

    "Deathstorm" (place holder name)
    FIRE PRIMORDIAL

    Figure: Deathstorm #41, Justice League: Trinity War, DC HeroClix

    General: Utgar
    Planet: Grut

    Species: Primordial
    Unique Hero
    Class: Sorcerer
    Personality: Tricky
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 6
    Range: 7
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 4
    100 points

    FIRELORD'S FOLLOWERS
    After revealing an order marker on the Obsidian Guards or a Fire Elemental you control, instead of taking a turn with that Army Card, you may take a turn with Deathstorm.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LAVA THROW EMPOWERMENT
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw special power that are within 4 clear sight spaces of Deathstorm may add 3 to their range. If a figure uses Lava Throw Empowerment, they subtract 1 die from their attack.


    Archive 2015
    Spoiler:

    Update:  04-13-2015

    I think this is the version that we should play-test:

    "Deathstorm" (place holder name)
    FIRE PRIMORDIAL

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    100 points

    FIRELORD BONDING
    After revealing an order marker on Deathstorm, instead of taking a turn with him, you may take a turn with either the Obsidian Guards or two Fire Elementals you control.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LAVA THROW ENHANCEMENT (change from Living Inferno)
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw add 2 to their range when within 4 spaces of Deathstorm.

    It means having to make decisions between moving Deathstorm up to use his Lava Throw Enhancement or getting in 3 attacks with the Obsidians. He can still bond with Fire Elementals, but just 2 and he does not get to take a turn himself.




    Last edited by Lord Kai on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:32 am; edited 6 times in total
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    Derek S

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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Derek S on Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:46 am

    Looks good.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:43 pm

    Question:

    Would you like to see the Fire Primordial work with:

    A.  Fire Elementals
    B.  Obsidian Guards


    I think that Fire Elementals are pretty powerful already, and the Obsidian Guards could use some more options.  The OG's are high-cost (100-points), so if the Primordial is around the same .. we're likely looking at Primordial + 3 squads of OG's + fillers.

    I could also do something like:  Bond with Squad of OG's or 2 Fire Elementals.

    ==

    Previous mini suggestion:



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    Last edited by Lord Kai on Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Admin on Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:29 pm

    This is a possible figure for the Fire Primordial.  Just released for Heroclix, DC, "Deathstorm."

    Much more economical that the fire angel I first posted : )





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    Derek S

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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Derek S on Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:26 am

    I like economical.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Nomad on Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:27 pm

    I like economical as well, but those first figures you posted look very cool. $11.75 vs $3.50 . . . hmm.

    I like the ideas of working with the Obsidians - they have a need. How about bonding with Obsidians or take a turn with two Fire Elementals (but no bonding).
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:33 pm

    }*Draft*{

    "Deathstorm" (place holder name)
    FIRE PRIMORDIAL

    General: Utgar
    Planet: Eberron

    Species: Primordial
    Unique Hero
    Class: Sorcerer
    Personality: Tricky
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 6
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 4
    100 points

    FIRELORD BONDING
    Before taking a turn with Deathstorm, you may first take a turn with the Obsidian Guards. Instead of taking a turn with Deathstorm or the Obsidian Guards, you may take a turn with two Fire Elementals you control.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LIVING INFERNO
    Figures with Lava Throw add 4 to their range when within 4 spaces of Deathstorm. While Deathstorm is on a lava space, add 1 to his attack and 1 to his defense. If Deathstorm begins his turn on a lava space, remove one wound marker from this Army Card.


    Obsidian Guards card:
    http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=8117

    --
    ARMY BUILDS:
    # 1
    Deathstorm ... 100
    Obsidian Guards x3 ... 400
    Warden 816 ... 490 (boost to Guard movement)

    # 2
    Deathstorm ... 100
    Obsidian Guards x3 ... 400
    Fire Elemental x3 ... 505

    # 3
    Deathstorm ... 100
    Obsidian Guards x2 ... 300
    Fire Elemental x 6 ... 510
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:23 pm

    After a play-test today, "Deathstorm" was a little over-powered.  Here are some adjustments:

    Dropping Move from 6 to 5.
    Dropping Range from 6 to 5.
    Dropping Defense from 4 to 3.
    Dropping Lava Throw bonus from +4 range to +3 range.
    Reducing Living Inferno Aura from 4 spaces to 3 spaces.  (within 3 = +3 range)
    Changing Firelord Bonding to allow a turn with "Deathstorm + 2 Fire Elementals"


    "Deathstorm" (place holder name)
    FIRE PRIMORDIAL

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    100 points

    FIRELORD BONDING
    Before taking a turn with Deathstorm, you may first take a turn with the Obsidian Guards or you may take a turn with two Fire Elementals you control.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LIVING INFERNO
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw add 3 to their range when within 3 spaces of Deathstorm.  While Deathstorm is on a lava space, add 1 to his attack and 1 to his defense.  If Deathstorm begins his turn on a lava space, remove one wound marker from this Army Card.


    Last edited by Lord Kai on Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:41 am

    The revised stats for "Deathstorm" are fairly balanced now.  I ran another play-test and Agent Skahen dropped 3 wounds on him in one shot and I was forced to pull him back or potentially lose my Order Markers.  Keeping him back limited his Range Boost for the Obsidians but it was in the middle of the match so they could close to melee range

    The Obsidians are power rank D (one of the worst) probably because they are too expensive for their points when not on a lava board. With "Deathstorm" - the Obsidians are pretty powerful with him though, probably moving up to B+ (Gladiators, Horned Skull Brutes, Warforged).  They become 4 Move, 4 Range, 4 Attack, 4 Defense for 100 points.  When they can get Height Advantage, they are throwing 5 dice at range which is vicious.

    Horned Skulls x4 ...300
    (12 figures, 12 life)

    Obsidians x2 ... 200
    Fire Primordial ... 300
    (7 figures, 11 life)


    In just melee, the Obsidians are way over-priced (compare to Horned Skull Brutes with 5M/4A/4D at 75-points).  They have sort of a "Stinger" threat though, where the OG are easily capable of throwing 4 dice at range, or 5 dice with height (at a range of 4).  That's potent but compared to Stingers who can get Height + Drain for 5 dice at one longer range without the extra investment of the Fire Primordial.  You are getting a potential fourth attack with the Primordial though.

    Stingers x5 ... 300
    (15 figures, 15 life)

    Obsidians x2 ... 200
    Fire Primordial ... 300
    (7 figures, 11 life)


    I did change "Deathstorm" to be able to bond with 2 Fire Elementals and then take a turn with him.  This works well and seems balanced when compared to Kurrok.


    Need some more play-testing. It might be that "Deathstorm" needs a bump in points to 120. If he goes down though, you are stuck with Obsidians that are D rated.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Derek S on Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:24 pm


    LIVING INFERNO
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw add 3 to their range when within 3 spaces of Deathstorm. While Deathstorm is on a lava space, add 1 to his attack and 1 to his defense. If Deathstorm begins his turn on a lava space, remove one wound marker from this Army Card.

    Wouldn't this give the Obsidians 6 range if they are on a molten lava space? That would make them pretty dominant on the right map. Do you think we should wordsmith so it caps at 4 range?

    Something like

    LIVING INFERNO
    Friendly figures within 3 spaces of Deathstorm with the Lava Throw special power are considered to be on a Molten Lava Space and may add 1 to their range.

    The rest of the power seems like a different power tacked on to this power. I think it would fit better with Lava resistance power and renaming that power.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:42 pm

    Thanks for the suggestions, Derek.  I'd like to keep LAVA RESISTANCE as is - so that other powers that refer to it (like Searing Intensity) remain unchanged.  I think I will drop the rest from Living Inferno to focus on Lava Throw.

    For LIVING INFERNO .. I'm looking at other 'Scape units and I think that Laglor and Deathwalker 9000 are possible ideas to leverage.

    Laglor adds 2 to range for Vydar figures with Range 4+ (taking Krav to Range 9, Nakitas to Range 8, MicroTroopers to Range 8 ).

    Deathwalker 9000 adds 2 to range for Soulborg Guards that are adjacent (taking Zettian Guards to Range 9, Zettian Infantry to Range 6, and Blastatrons to Range 9).


    So I am thinking of following Laglor's example, though Laglor does not Bond.

    LAVA THROW ENHANCEMENT  (change from Living Inferno)
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw add 2 to their range when within 4 spaces of Deathstorm.


    This is taking the Obsidians to Range 3 on a normal board.  That is not super-useful but these guys are Tanks in their own right and Bonding will keep them close to the aura.

    I should probably increase Deathstorm's cost .. but I've been keeping him lower because the Obsidians are D-ranked at 100 points.  In most games, you'll only have 3 squads of them.  Deathstorm is probably 140 points as is, but if I drop him 15 points for each OG squad you'd likely have over-paid for ... he's around 100-110 points.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Derek S on Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:20 pm

    For when I do an order, have you decided if your using the cool mini or the more economical one?  The cool looking one sure is pretty, but I think you would have to have flying with that mini.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:21 am

    Derek S wrote:For when I do an order, have you decided if your using the cool mini or the more economical one?  The cool looking one sure is pretty, but I think you would have to have flying with that mini.

    We are "Deathstorm" : )

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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Nomad on Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:38 pm

    A move in the right direction, but through theory-scaping, I think he is still too strong and I think play-testing will prove that out and be unbeatable on a lava map. I'm concerned about taking a turn with two fire elementals and then with this guy (burn with all engaged fires, attack with one, burn with all engaged fires, attack with another, move this guy into range/safety and shoot from range). Ranged attacks of 5 is pretty awesome, especially when they will probably have defenses of 5 with height.

    Here would be my suggestions:

    PHLOGISTONIUS (or INFERNIOUS)

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    100 points

    FIRELORD BONDING
    Before taking a turn with Phlogistonius, you may first take a turn with the Obsidian Guards. Instead of taking a turn with Phlogistonius or the Obsidian Guards, you may take a turn with two Fire Elementals you control.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Phlogistonius never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LIVING INFERNO
    All friendly figures with Lava Throw within 3 clear sight spaces of Phlogistonius add 2 spaces to their Range number. While Phlogistonius is on a lava or lava field space, add 1 to his Attack and Defense.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:08 pm

    Nomad wrote:A move in the right direction, but through theory-scaping, I think he is still too strong and I think play-testing will prove that out and be unbeatable on a lava map. I'm concerned about taking a turn with two fire elementals and then with this guy (burn with all engaged fires, attack with one, burn with all engaged fires, attack with another, move this guy into range/safety and shoot from range). Ranged attacks of 5 is pretty awesome, especially when they will probably have defenses of 5 with height.

    Not sure on the name .. I have trouble pronouncing it, so I'd like to go with something easier.  I'll keep using Deathstorm for now.

    Okay on the Fire Elementals.  What about adding a line of sight restriction to their bonding?  Kurrok has that, but none of the other Primordials do.  Also I dropped the extra bits from Living Inferno because he was getting too powerful.  It is just Lava Throw Enhancement now but I kept it add +2 range for those within 4 spaces.  

    "Deathstorm" (place holder name)
    FIRE PRIMORDIAL

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    100 points

    FIRELORD BONDING
    Before taking a turn with Deathstorm, you may first take a turn with the Obsidian Guards or instead you may take a turn with two Fire Elementals you control.  Fire Elementals taking a turn instead of Deathstorm must be within 8 clear sight spaces of Deathstorm before moving.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LAVA THROW ENHANCEMENT  (change from Living Inferno)
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw add 2 to their range when within 4 spaces of Deathstorm.



    On a lava map, the Obsidians would have a 5 range but likely giving up height to get the range bonus.  That makes them in line with Water Elementals in water (Range 5, Attack 4, Defense 5 .. losing height).  Three Water Elementals with Kurrok would be 210 points (30 x3 + 120).  For Obsidians it is 200 points (100 + 100).  Both have a Move 4 but Water can teleport and Water always has a Range 5. That's pretty close. When you go to 6 Water with Kurrok, you are at = 300 points versus 2 squads of OG + Primordial of = 300 points.

    But as I type this out, I see that Deathstorm is also able to move & attack. This is on par with the other Primordials who are limited to just one elemental type - where Kurrok can use different combinations and he can rebirth them.

    Hmmm. Lots to think about .. and probably more play-testing to be done.

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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Nomad on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:20 pm

    PHLOGISTONIUS (flog-is-tone-e-us) - Phlogiston is a synonym for fire/burning.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:51 pm

    Lord Kai wrote:
    On a lava map, the Obsidians would have a 5 range but likely giving up height to get the range bonus.  That makes them in line with Water Elementals in water (Range 5, Attack 4, Defense 5 .. losing height).  Three Water Elementals with Kurrok would be 210 points (30 x3 + 120).  For Obsidians it is 200 points (100 + 100).  Both have a Move 4 but Water can teleport and Water always has a Range 5.  That's pretty close.  When you go to 6 Water with Kurrok, you are at = 300 points versus 2 squads of OG + Primordial of = 300 points.  

    But as I type this out, I see that Deathstorm is also able to move & attack.  This is on par with the other Primordials who are limited to just one elemental type - where Kurrok can use different combinations and he can rebirth them.

    Hmmm.  Lots to think about .. and probably more play-testing to be done.


    Okay thinking more about this .. Deathstorm is the first Primordial to bond with a Classic-Scape squad instead of individual heroes. I think this goes back to the "activations" per OM mechanic.

    Kurrok: Hero -or- 3 commons
    Zaiken: Hero + 3 commons
    Kronan: Hero + 2 commons
    T'warth: Hero + 1 squad (3 figs with Sylvans, 2 with Eilan Sidhe)

    Surion: Hero + 2 commons (as designed)
    Fire: Hero + 1 squad (3 figs, as designed)

    Zaiken is the most terrain dependent (water) with the most activations. Tawarthion has 4 activations but his main squad (Sylvans) are more defensive than offensive. Kronan can work anywhere but affects the board.

    Surion: he'll likely have 3 activations/attacks (with the attack being an area of effect/shotgun style)

    Maybe Deathstorm (Fire) is an either/or with the Obsidian Guards. You either move & attack with them or bring up Deathstorm. That is more in line with Laglor using an OM to reposition his Range Enhancement Aura.

    We can have it also be either Hero or Obsidians or 2 Elementals.

    Sound more balanced?

    FIRELORD BONDING
    After revealing an order marker on Deathstorm, instead of taking a turn with him, you may take a turn with either the Obsidian Guards or two Fire Elementals you control.


    This language is more like Zaiken, but a little risky:
    " ... you may take a turn with either one common squad or two common heroes with the Lava Resistance special power."


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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Derek S on Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:30 pm

    I like where this guy is headed but I see the real problem lying with the fire elemental and their burning after taking a turn. Yeah, it is less than Kurrok and he can't rebirth them so maybe it is doable. I am not a big fan of bonding with one squad or instead taking a turn with commons, but that might just be me. Maybe just some movement bonding instead of full on bonding but not so about that either.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:27 pm

    I think this is the version that we should play-test:

    "Deathstorm" (place holder name)
    FIRE PRIMORDIAL

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    100 points

    FIRELORD BONDING
    After revealing an order marker on Deathstorm, instead of taking a turn with him, you may take a turn with either the Obsidian Guards or two Fire Elementals you control.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LAVA THROW ENHANCEMENT  (change from Living Inferno)
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw add 2 to their range when within 4 spaces of Deathstorm.


    It means having to make decisions between moving Deathstorm up to use his Lava Throw Enhancement or getting in 3 attacks with the Obsidians.  He can still bond with Fire Elementals, but just 2 and he does not get to take a turn himself.

    ARMY BUILDS:

    # 1
    Deathstorm ... 100
    Obsidian Guards x3 ... 400
    Fire Elemental x 3 ... 505
    (This build is heavy on melee and getting the OG's into combat.  Elementals are clean up/support).

    # 2
    Deathstorm ... 100
    Fire Elemental x8 ... 380
    Krav Maga Agents ... 480
    Marcu ... 500
    (This build highlights Elementals, but I think it is less effective than Kurrok .. just no range/line of sight restriction on bonding).
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:43 pm

    I ran a play-test last night with the new stats:

    Deathstorm ... 100
    Obsidian Guards x3 ... 400
    Fire Elemental x 3 ... 505

    vs

    Zaiken ... 100
    Water Elemental x8 .. 340
    Sahuagin Raider x3 .. 415
    Malcor ... 495 (new custom I'm working on)


    This version of the Fire Primordial (Deathstorm) had the either/or bonding condition (take a turn with Obsidians -or- Deathstorm) which was different to play.  It basically meant that the OG's were doing most of the move/attack and Deathstorm did not move for several OM's.  When he did in Game 1, he quickly took 4 wounds from Water Elemental ranged attacks.  After that, I shifted OM's to the Obsidians and Deathstorm basically boosted their range.  Since he was not moving up with the squad it was very limiting and not much Range Enhancement was happening.  The Obsidians themselves were pretty potent (4 Attack, 4 Defense - with a few jungle trees and often height because Water Elementals were in water shooting upwards.  

    In Game 1, I was aggressive with Zaiken and moved him too close to the action.  He failed a 5 attack roll on one OG (who had 5 defense with height), and then Zaiken was hit with three attacks of 5 (two in melee, one from a lava throw) and he was destroyed after Round 2.  The Obsidians did some clean up which left Malcor, an Archer that I have posted yet.  Basically Malcor ran around the board with Range 7, Attack 3 and picked off the slow moving Obsidians for an odd come back for Team H-2-O.

    Game 2 I was more conservative with Zaiken and Deathstorm.  Since the OM's for bonding go on those folks, it is risky to move them out too soon.  There were some incredible defense rolls for Water Elementals (a 5 skull attack from an Obsidian blocked by a perfect 5/5 shield and a 4 shield block of 4 skulls).  Deathstorm was eliminated by a sniper shot from Malcor (the Archer) when he whiffed on defense against an attack from height).  That wasn't too bad, as it left me run the Obsidians to see how they worked without Primordial support.  The Obsidians did well, cornering Zaiken again for multiple attacks of 5 from height (since Zaiken was in water).  The Water Prime held up longer this time but they eventually got him.  With one squad of Obsidians and three Fire Elementals, the rest of the clean up was fairly easy.

    So Water vs Fire split 1-1.

    Zaiken had more attacks per OM because he can take at turn, but he generally sat back until melee came for him.  Deathstorm was much less effective in this build as using a turn to move him up just to give Obsidians +2 range wasn't worth the risk of losing OM's to sniper attacks from Water Elementals.  I'd say overall that I liked being able to move Deathstorm up with the Obsidians to continue to maintain the +2 range Lava Throw (otherwise why are you spending 100 points for a hero instead of another squad of OG's).

    I was surprised at the Obsidians without Deathstorm.  They were tough!  Maybe some of it had to do with Water Elementals giving up height most of the time, but in Game 2 I played the Water El's on even ground and a few times they skipped on going into water to just take normal height so the Obsidians.  With as tough as the OG are, I was wondering why they are power-ranked so low (at D).  I think it has to do with them being heavily "terrain-based" but also they have Water Weakness .. rolling 2 less defense on water.  That could be harsh on swamp water maps, too.  They also only have Move 4.

    Here are the other comparable common squads that have at least Attack 4:

    Horned Skull Brutes:  75 points, Move 5, Attack 4, Defense 4
    Havech Eradicators:  90 points, Range 5, Move 6, Attack 4, Defense 4
    Obsidian Guards:  100 points, Move 4, Attack 4, Defense 4

    I think the Eradicators come close, since they *have* range but don't like to use it.  They are 10 points less than the Obsidians but have +2 move greater and no water-weakness.  Based on those numbers - even if the Obsidians had a Range 3 on their own, they are probably 80 points instead of 100.

    If we don't want Deathstorm to have full bonding with Obsidians (or 2 Fire Elementals) then I suggest that we drop him to 80-points.  His Range Enhancement only works for the Obsidians and not all Vydar like Laglor does .. so he's a very specific draft.

    Anyway, it was fun playing a Water vs Fire battle!  Thanks for reading.
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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:36 pm

    Group shot : )

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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Nomad on Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:37 pm

    Thanks for the detailed play test report and insights.

    After an hour + reading through everything again and thinking, here are my opinions:

    I concur that the Obsidians are a formidable squad at 4x4 on their own. Their D ranking probably comes because they are very slow and that no one really wants to play them unless there is a lava map.

    I like the concept of the Fire Primordial, but, this is my opinion, if we tie him up with bonding to either Obsidians or FEs and base his points on that, then he will never be played without them . . . AND, this army will become virtually unbeatable on a lava map (which would, by necessity, jack the points of the fire primordial way up). And this means, that no one would want to play them unless they were on a lava map. The Fire Elementals are so good, I am really struggling with a way to make them work with this guy without bumping his points.

    I understand that Tawarthion won't be played without Sylvan/Sidhe, but, they aren't near-invincible on a tree map. I know that Zaiken really wants to run only when there are WE and Sahugans with water on the map, but, they aren't near-invincible on a map with a bunch of water. Kronan and the Earths? Time will tell (I think we have a lot to learn about how to play him really well).

    My conjecture to make him the most "playable" on all maps, the fire primordial might include something like this:

    FIRE PRIMORDIAL (aka Deathstorm)

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    80 points (dropped from 100)

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LAVA THROW ENHANCEMENT
    Friendly figures with the Lava Throw Special Power add 2 to their range when they are within 4 spaces of Deathstorm. (Same as yours, just reworded a bit)

    MOLTRAN GUARD LEADERSHIP
    All Moltran Guards you control move on additional space. (boosts Obisidians and could boost another Moltran Guard hero we create later. And yes, with Warden 816, the Obsidians could get a +2 move).

    SEARING INTENSITY
    After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to at least one Fire Elemental you control. If you roll a 14 or higher, that figure receives 1 wound. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Searing Intensity. (Yep, this is the same as on the FE's card. So, he works with the FEs without the bonding).
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    Lord Kai

    Posts : 1618
    Join date : 2013-05-26
    Location : Seattle

    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:34 pm

    Nomad wrote:
    My conjecture to make him the most "playable" on all maps, the fire primordial might include something like this:

    FIRE PRIMORDIAL (aka Deathstorm)

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    80 points (dropped from 100)

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LAVA THROW ENHANCEMENT
    Friendly figures with the Lava Throw Special Power add 2 to their range when they are within 4 spaces of Deathstorm. (Same as yours, just reworded a bit)

    MOLTRAN GUARD LEADERSHIP
    All Moltran Guards you control move on additional space. (boosts Obisidians and could boost another Moltran Guard hero we create later. And yes, with Warden 816, the Obsidians could get a +2 move).

    SEARING INTENSITY
    After moving and before attacking, you must roll the 20-sided die once for each figure adjacent to at least one Fire Elemental you control. If you roll a 14 or higher, that figure receives 1 wound. Figures with the Lava Resistant special power are not affected by Searing Intensity. (Yep, this is the same as on the FE's card. So, he works with the FEs without the bonding).

    I like it.  The +1 Move is solid.  The Searing Intensity is a nice touch. Do you have it only working if their are Fire Elementals in your army, or does Deathstorm also get to roll to see if he wounds adjacent figures? If the later, I think it keeps him at 100 points (basically he has a double-attack option).

    Since I played Deathstorm without bonding, I can tell you that +1 Move for the Obsidians is pretty good.  You'll still be spending OM's to move Deathstorm into position for the Lava Throw boost, but alternating between OG's and the Hero is balanced.

    Are you okay with 4 powers?
    avatar
    Nomad

    Posts : 1922
    Join date : 2013-05-26

    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Nomad on Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:12 pm

    I'm OK with 4 special powers, as long as they are relatively short. I have not read that there is a Heroscape law that prevents the use of four powers. Besides, these customs are for us . . . if others have issues, that is just their opinion - in my opinion.

    I wouldn't have Deathstorm have searing intensity . . . he already gets the ranged attack by using the fire elemental's searing intensity, and then he has his own normal attack. Still, 80 points might be a little light.

    EDIT: C3V just released a figure with 4 powers - so I think we are OK.
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    Lord Kai

    Posts : 1618
    Join date : 2013-05-26
    Location : Seattle

    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:10 pm

    Wow, it was about a YEAR ago when we last worked on the Fire Primordial : )

    Here's some suggestions for next version:

    "Deathstorm" (place holder name)
    FIRE PRIMORDIAL

    Life: 5
    Move: 6
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3
    100 points

    FIRELORD BONDING
    After revealing an order marker on Deathstorm, instead of taking a turn with him, you may take a turn with either the Obsidian Guards or two Fire Elementals you control.

    LAVA RESISTANT
    Deathstorm never rolls for molten lava damage or lava field damage, and he does not have to stop on molten lava spaces.

    LAVA THROW ENHANCEMENT (change from Living Inferno)
    Friendly figures with Lava Throw add 2 to their range when within 4 spaces of Deathstorm.

    --

    Bumping Move and Range to 6. He's still very vulnerable to range. He's sort of a Laglor but Laglor can bump the threat-range for his complimentary 'agents' to keep Lag' safe. Keeping him at 110 because Laglor has one more range and a special attack (that could lead to multi-attack). And yes, Deathstorm should probably be around 140 points but with the Obsidians at a D rating, I'm knocking off 10-points per squad that he'd normally field to make the Obisidians about 90-points.

    Yes, Deathstorm is going to make the Obsidian's a beast on a lava board but that's a rarity.

    I think I've play-tested Deathstorm a lot more than you guys, so maybe we give him a whirl together soon.


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    Re: W4 - Vadik Hollesturm - Fire Primordial - ready for final

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