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    cannoneers box brainstorming

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    Derek S

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    cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:37 pm

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    888 Points

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    Derek S

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:56 pm


    NAME = Cannon

    SPECIES = Inanimate
    UNIQUENESS = common
    CLASS = weapon
    PERSONALITY = explosive
    SIZE/HEIGHT = large 3 (will check

    LIFE = 5
    MOVE = 3
    RANGE = 7
    ATTACK = 2-3
    DEFENSE = 4
    POINTS = ?

    SPECIAL POWERS =
    1) A cannon can only move if there are 2 or more medium figures or 1 large or huge figure adjacent to the cannon. All friendly figures adjacent to the cannon prior to moving may move normally, as long as they end their movement adjacent to the cannon moving. (I would much rather go with a rule book on Inanimate movement).
    2) For targeting purposes, choose an adjacent friendly figure for line of sight. A cannon cannot attack adjacent figures.
    3) When a cannon attack a D.O. add 1 automatic skull, when defending against a special attack add 1 automatic shield. (if we don't come up with a rule book this would be combined with 1) for a move and fire power, which would open up a 4th power).
    4) [Shrapnel Special attack Range 7 Attack 3] If at least 2 cannoneers are adjacent the cannon may instead use the Shrapnel special attack. Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by the Shrapnel Special Attack. A cannon only needs a clear sight shot at the chosen figure. Roll 3 attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. A cannon can be affected by its own Shrapnel Special Attack.

    NAME = Cannoneers (?)

    SPECIES = human
    UNIQUENESS = common
    CLASS = soldier
    PERSONALITY = engineering
    SIZE/HEIGHT = medium 4/5 (will check)

    LIFE = 1
    MOVE = 5
    RANGE = 1
    ATTACK = 2
    DEFENSE = 2
    POINTS = ?

    SPECIAL POWERS =
    1) After moving and instead of attacking normally, if a cannoneer ends its movement adjacent to a cannon, the may instead attack with one cannon that they ended their movement adjacent to.
    2) For every cannoneer adjacent to a cannon you may add 1 to the cannon's move, Range, and attack to a maximum of +3.
    3) before moving, if at least 2 cannoneers are adjacent to the same cannon, they can instead take a turn with the cannon.


    How about something like:

    Name = CANNON
    Species = Siege Weapon
    Uniqueness = Uncommon Hero
    General = Vydar
    Class = Artillery
    Personality = Relentless
    Size/Height = Large 3

    Life = 3
    Move = 0
    Range = 8
    Attack = 0
    Defense = 4

    Points = 30

    HEAVY ARTILLERY (Flaw)
    Cannon does not receive bonuses for Height advantage. Cannon has a Move of 0. Instead of moving and attacking normally any medium, large or huge figure adjacent to Cannon may declare that they are moving that Cannon. Each medium figure gives the Cannon 1 move, and each large or huge figure gives the Cannon 3 move. After moving the Cannon, place any figures that moved the Cannon adjacent to it. A figure cannot exceed its normal move when being placed adjacent to the Cannon.

    BARRAGE
    Instead of moving, the Cannon may use Barrage as a normal attack. Add 1 attack dice for each figure that added Move to the Cannon this turn, up to 6 attack. Minimum attack is 2 dice.

    SHRAPNEL SPECIAL ATTACK
    Range: 8 Attack: 4
    Instead of attacking with Barrage, Cannon may use Shrapnel Special Attack. Chose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Shrapnel Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Cannon can be affected by Shrapnel Special attack.

    ==
    Name = ELITE ARTILLERY TEAM
    Species = Human
    Uniqueness = Common Squad
    General = Vydar
    Class = Artillery
    Personality = Precise
    Size/Height = Medium 4

    Life = 1
    Move = 4
    Range = 1
    Attack = 2
    Defense = 3

    Points = 40

    SKILLED TEAM WORKED
    When adding to the Move value of a siege weapon, Elite Artillery Team adds 2 move per figure instead of 1.

    READY, AIM, FIRE!
    Before attacking with a ranged siege weapon, you may reveal an X order marker on the Elite Artillery Team to activate Ready Aim, Fire!. If you do, you may add 2 attack and 2 range to any normal attack this turn.

    COORDINATED SALVO
    Before attacking with a ranged siege weapon, you may reveal an X order marker on the Elite Artillery Team to activate Coordinated Salvo. If you do, you may attack with up to three ranged siege weapons this turn. There must be at least one Elite Artillery team figure adjacent to each siege weapon that attacks.


    I wouldn't mind having a movement value listed on individual weapon cards. That way a large Cannon (relatively cumbersome to move) and a large wagon (not that I see one being made) that is relatively easy to move could have different move values. I like the idea of a large or huge figure being able to move a cannon more easily but I don't know if we want a Siege Tower to be able to move 8 spaces (if you had a squad of Templar Knights next to it). We should also address what happens (falling damage, etc) when a weapon is destroyed. I wouldn't mind having appropriate falling damage being applied, and having one attack dice rolled for each figure that is adjacent to or occupying the weapon. Is there anything else we should consider putting in the rule book


    Those are excellent points!

    For the 'siege weapons' - I was wondering what the "base" would be like. For example, the Cannon looks like a peanut base could work for the wheels, but should it really be on a 3-hexer?

    For the Siege Tower , I'm guessing that would be a on 3 or 4 hexes as well, so we might need 8 movement points to get the front base and the back base moved.


    You're thinking of a small rulebook like c3g does for "Knockback" for the Siege Weapons, right? I'd be up for working on that.

    The cannon will easily fit on a peanut base- probably even a small one. Yes, I am thinking a rulebook like the c3g does. Maybe we just address the canon for now, and add other items to the book down the road that way we can adjust for 4 space items and such down the road. We would then just need to come to a concensus on the move basics and specifics of the cannon being destroyed for now. I think having an expandable rule book for these things would be good.


    I’m sorry that I’m late to the conversation. Sounds like some great ideas.

    Derek - I confess, I haven’t had the time to look at the discussions that others have had that you referenced on Scapers – so all of my questions and thoughts may change.

    Just a couple of questions so that I can get my mind around the cannons . . .


    Since they are inanimate/destructible, they don’t actually perform actions on their own, correct?



    So, there wouldn’t be a case where you would put order markers on a cannon, correct?



    So, the cannon, since it doesn’t move on its own accord, wouldn’t need a move number, correct? If there is a move number, it would be utilized in a different way than the Move on other cards.


    I think the Cannoneers should definitely increase the range, attack, and the ability to move the cannon – that is their job and what they have been trained to do.

    Regarding movement:
    The cannon may be moved 2 spaces per medium figure that starts and ends the movement adjacent to the cannon, 3 spaces per large, and 4 spaces per huge – or something like that.

    I like the idea of the shrapnel special attack.

    I like the idea of an auto skull or two on a door.

    I like the Coodinated Salvo and Ready, Aim, Fire concepts using the X marker.

    Minimum range on the normal attack should be 8, if not more. It will be tough to move that thing around – ooh, even turning it should cost a movement.

    Regarding wounds on adjacent figures when the cannon is destroyed . . . does this exist in the classic scape world at this point? If not, I’d prefer to leave it in the C3G universe (we don’t even play with destructible battlements, trees, etc., that cause damage to adjacent figures with C3G even though those rules exist).

    Regarding the book:
    I’m all in favor of trying to make it playable just by looking at the card – I dislike having to stop a game, run to the other room to get a rule book, thumb through the pages, etc. The C3G books are works of art, but it became bothersome just to find out the specifics for knockback or superhero lava damage (now if they were on a card . . . that would have been nice!). I’m not against this idea, but I would like to get as much info on the cannon card as possible to make it playable. General rules, mechanics, examples, etc, in a book – that is all good.

    Peace,
    Damon


    They would not be able to perform functions on their own, at least without restrictions in place.

    For putting order markers on them- It depends on the road we go down. In my initial writeup you could only use the cannon if you had an order marker on the cannon and a certain amount of figures adjacent, or through bonding by having an order on the cannon squad. But certainly nothing is settled there.

    For move- There are multiple ways to do this; having every adjacent figure add to the move total, with bonus's for size. Have a set move number that a cannon can move that requires certain conditions (an x amount of squad or med/small figures, large or huge figures). Or many other options. If the cannon were to have a move number it would not be able to move in the normal sense- it would represent the potential move if certain conditions are met. This is why I think a rule book on "weapon" movement, destruction, etc. would be worth doing. Just like how normal movement is discussed in the rule book, not on the card. There is a potential for having a 3-spaced or bigger "weapon" and rather than trying to explain all the movement issues on the card, I think a rule book would be in order, but we don't have to, we could try and keep it all on the card.

    Lava damage, movement, flying, attacking, LOS, road bonus, snow/ice movement, etc. are all addressed in the rule books not on the cards- exceptions to the rules are usually put on the card. These "weapons/inanimates" do not exist in classic scape, so there are no existing rules for them to go by. I have no problem dropping the idea of weapons because they do not fit with the heroscape universe as it is, but I do think we could have some fun with this. The idea for damage stems from discussion on the "siege weapon" where the question is what to do with the figures that occupy the siege weapon when it is destroyed. Are all figures destroyed, do you apply falling damage, etc? If we continue with the weapon idea we will have to figure out what happens when it is destroyed. I think general rules, examples, mechanics for these weapons is what we would be doing in the rulebook, this way the movement rules, attack rules, destruction rules for "weapons/inanimates" could be shown without trying to do it on the card- no other card explains movement/attack-targeting/destruction on the card itself, if that makes sense. Although we could try to get this all on the individual cards without a rulebook- then we wouldn't have to worry about how other weapon/inanimate objects would move/attack-target/get destroyed, etc. but then I think we would be very limited on space for adding potential specials that a weapon could do. I will take a look at how the breakable wall and door are reflected in the rulebooks compared to the card to see what we should apply from there to this.



    I don't see the rulebook being any different than the FoA in discussing the door. The rulebook discusses opening/closing, targeting, build requirements, attacking, etc. I think there were more plans for other doors that would have followed these same rules. The card for the FoA door only states its specific properties- adding 2 auto shields against small or medium, and 1 auto shield against large or huge. Other doors in the works more than likely would have had other specific properties on it's card but still followed the same rules.
    I see "weapons/inanimates" as working the same way if that helps with the rulebook idea being thrown out there;

    1) how do weapons move. (Have an order marker on the card and if there are (such and such qualifications) met it may move its move #, weapons can not end their movement on uneven spaces, etc)
    2) how do weapons attack. (If an order marker is revealed on a weapon and (such and such qualifications) are met choose an adjacent figure for targeting purposes and the weapon may attack).
    3) how do weapons defend. (They may be targeted and attack much like a figure).
    4) how do weapons get destroyed. (If they receive enough wounds to reach their life they are removed from the game)
    5) Which player(s) get to use the weapons. (only figures that drafted the weapon- unless used in a scenario- may use the weapon. A weapon can never be taken over by an opponent by any means-ie., mindshackle.)

    The blue typing is thrown out as an example, not what I would necessarily push for. There are probably some more thoughts that should be in rule book (if we go that route) than listed here, which we might miss when discussing the cannon, but catch when (if) we discuss a Siege Weapon, which is why the rule book would be expandable or adjustable. Hopefully this will help in making the decision to do a rulebook or not for all 4 of us.


    Got it. The rulebook sounds like it is necessary if we are going to create more weapons – cannon, siege tower, trebuchet, catapults, tanks, B-52s, starships, deathstars, . . . (just kidding – kind of). Can we put limitations on the types of weapons? It seems that when figures are brought to Valhalla from another world, it is just the figure, the clothes on their back, and the weapons they are carrying. Can we limit it to types of weapons that we envision might be in Valhalla – medieval/Viking conquest times at the latest? I don’t want tanks or deathstars.

    Regarding the rule book, we will need to be sure that everything is consistent for all the weapons, so as we look at designing the cannon I like your idea of also considering other types of weapons that will have the same general characteristics. I can see falling damage for people on a siege tower when it is destroyed, but not when a cannon is destroyed – no one is on top of it (unless the extra powder blows up – hmm).

    This is a ton to think about. Definitely agree that the rule book would be a work in progress, maybe not make it public until we have 2 or 3 weapons created. Having the specific properties on the cards for each weapon would be good with me. Still a lot to think about – I’m glad you are taking this on!

    Now, for another play test or two with the Fusiliers. I hope to have a specific proposal out this weekend.


    I think it is easier to have (siege) weapons be like the Fortress Door or other destructible objects. This way they don't have a Unit Cost/Points of their own ... but maybe certain units can start with one {like the Cannoneers}.

    MOVE. Rules for moving weapons can be general - and described in a special rulebook like the Fortress Door operation. But then the Card for the weapon will have any special rules for it.

    So the rulebook might say how much movement a siege weapon has (and maybe there are medium, large and huge weapons) .. but then specialty units like the Cannoneers might get/give bonus move to certain weapons.

    ATTACK. Spelled out in Rulebook, though specialist units might give a bonus. I would think that order markers would only be on Army Cards (and not weapons).
    DEFENSE. Like any destructible object.

    When DESTROYED? There could be some great meta-game around a siege tower falling!! Like rolling for damage when a Frost Giant dies! Could even do things like 'place a large ruin' on the board to represent debris or something. I could see rolling a die like an engagement strike after a tower is destroyed. Could be considered falling damage or shrapnel when the weapon blows up.

    I think we should find two or three weapons to start. The Cannon can be a good medium weapon .. .maybe the Siege Tower is a huge weapon.

    Would love to hear any thoughts Jason had on this. It sounds like everyone else is willing to go down the "weapon" road with a weapon rulebook. I don't myself want to include a deathstar or tank, but.... The Siege pack from Mage Knight has a cannon (bigger than the one being designed), a stone thrower, a mortar, and a Living Ballista (would be a character in and of himself). The cannon and mortar would probably need to occupy a 3-hex space. The stone thrower would fit a peanut base, has no wheels (probably shouldn't be able to move). I do not know how big the Siege Tower will be- hopefully only 4 spaces.

    Kai kind of throws out something I hadn't really thought of before with "This way they don't have a Unit Cost/Points of their own ... but maybe certain units can start with one {like the Cannoneers}". Maybe all weapons are tied to a specific unit/squad. The cannon is part of the cannoneer common squad with the points factored in. We could have a unique squad of rock guys that go with the stonethrower weapon. Some large beasts (maybe uncommon) that go with the Siege Tower . But then the weapon could only be used by the figures tied to it- or maybe not. Just some more thoughts to add.


    The Siege Pack is interesting. I could see different Cannons for different Units (like a Vydar, Utgar, etc.)

    http://www.amazon.com/Mage-Knight-Conquest-Siege-Pack/dp/B00006697X

    That living ballista is a little ... odd.



    Okay, this is what I've got. I haven't tested them ...

    Name: Elite Artillery Team
    Species: Human
    Uniqueness: Common Squad
    General: Jandar or Einar
    Class: Artillerists
    Personality: Precise
    Size/Height: Medium 4
    Life: 1
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense: 3
    Points: 70
    CANNON. At the beginning of the game, you may place up to 1 Cannon in your start zone for each squad of Elite Artillery Team you control.
    CANNON MOVEMENT. Instead of moving the Elite Artillery Team normally, you may choose any number of Elite Artillery Team figures adjacent to a Cannon and move that Cannon up to one space for each chosen unit. After you move the Cannon, place each chosen figure adjacent to the Cannon.
    CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK. Range 8. Attack 4. Instead of attacking normally, three Elite Artillery Team adjacent to the same Cannon can use a Cannon Blast special attack. Use any of the Elite Artillery Team for detemining line of sight. All skulls count as one additional hit.

    Thanks for chiming in Jason!

    Interesting. The Cannoneers and the cannon all on one card! I kind of like that – very simple.

    RE Blast SA: A prefect roll of 4 skulls = 8 wounds – ouch, I’m running from that thing (or sending in the expendable rabble to try to take out the cannoneers – kind of like real life). How about attack of 1, but each additional cannoneer adds one die to the attack? So it could start with 4 dice, but if you can pick off a cannoneer the attack would diminish . . . can’t pack as much powder with fewer dudes? Just throwing out ideas.

    RE Movement: A cannon should be tough to move.

    I still like the idea of the shrapnel special attack as well.

    I'm definitely open to feedback. Just tossing out some ideas.

    I like the cannon special attack value as a function of adjacent dudes (reflecting accuracy), with an upper limit. The perfect roll worried me, too, so I was thinking about dropping it to 3. No height to modify because it is a special, so that helps.

    Note, the way I wrote the cannon movement allows for 6 peeps to move it, which would help with people shooting the cannoneers. This is zombie esque and helps offset the 'we need to stand around a cannon' issue. I also wrote the special attack as requiring three adjacent peeps, so if you only have 3 around it and one died, the special wouldn't be an option. So ... I wanted you to be able to move more than 3 up at a time.

    We could drop the movement to 1/2 the number of people, rounded up (so, 1 move for 1 or 2 peeps, 2 move for 3 and 4, 3 move for 5 and 6. Or 1+ 1/2 ... or something. Makes the cannon slower.

    I was thinking the special wouldn't need line of sight. Just pick a straight line eminating from the cannon (ala Mimring). This would allow staggered approaches and not just being worried about being with an 8 range. Hmm ... still working it out.

    I like the Shrapnel attack, too. We could have it be a 2 person squad, and make the third guy a common hero who allowed for a Shrapnel attack. Then modify the numbers and powers above to reflect 2 man working team. Thoughts?

    J

    This is what I have from when we were emailing.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:32 pm


    This artillery development will take some work but I think it will add something really cool to the game.

    Do you have a good picture of the "cannon?" I can't find one online. I am wondering if it provides any cover for the crew (like they get +1 defense when adjacent).
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    Derek S

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:34 pm

    No real good cover provided unless you were a small 3. I will try and take a picture soon. Yeah, I think if we do it right it could be a fun addition.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:57 pm

    Hey Guys,
    I picked up the Cannon Crew set. They are really cool!

    Here are some pics. The Cannon would fit on a peanut base.




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    Nomad

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:29 pm

    OK, I've spent some time reading through all of the emails that Derek copied over. We really had some good discussions way back when.

    I'm all for developing this, but I need to let it soak in a bit and then reread the emails again before I can put forth any thoughts.

    Derek, what are your current thoughts regarding this unit/cannon? I'm kind of leaning towards one card for the squad and cannon together - the cannon itself doesn't get destroyed - instead, after the cannon crew is taken out, the cannon is not useable. Just thinking . . .
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    Derek S

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:26 pm

    I really see the cannon as being a destructible object. Not real sure if only the cannoneers get to use, or any one can, yet. I could easily see the 4th, 10th, pirates, and more using cannons, but it would be simpler to have it dedicated to the Cannoneer's only.
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    Nomad

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:52 pm

    It would be much simpler to just let the cannoneers use it. Why draft the cannoneers if you can use the 4th to control it?
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    Derek S

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:14 pm

    It would be much simpler to just let the cannoneers use it. Why draft the cannoneers if you can use the 4th to control it?

    The cannoneers would be getting/giving a bonus to the cannon, the 4th would be losing four attacks for 1. Lots could be going on here, and I am not real sure yet which direction would be best. If a boat was ever made should it be exclusive to a certain squad? or should a siege tower be exclusive to a certain squad? I don't know.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:14 pm


    I think it is okay for another squad to use the Cannon .. with the consideration that you can only draft the Cannon if you have the Cannoneers Unique Squad in your army.
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    Nomad

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:00 pm

    Derek - when you get a chance, can you re-summarize the latest and greatest numbers/powers for the cannon and crew?
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    Derek S

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:24 am

    When I formulate a course of action I will submit a starting point design. I started the other day but it didn't feel right and I ran out of time. Maybe today or Sunday.
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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:40 pm

    Cannon
    Movable Destructible Object (movable, usable, interactive?)

    Life- 6
    Defense- 6

    MOVABLE
    If an order marker is placed on an Army Card of a figure adjacent to this Cannon, instead of taking a turn with that figure(s) you may use Movable.  (To use Movable count each adjacent Medium figure as 1, each Large or Huge figure as 2 to contribute to Movable.  The sum is the spaces this Cannon may be moved, to a maximum of 5 spaces.)  For each Medium figure adjacent to this Cannon, this Cannon may be moved 1 space.  For each Large or Huge figure adjacent to this Cannon, this Cannon may be moved 2 spaces, to a maximum of 5 spaces.  After moving this Cannon place all figures that contributed to the movement adjacent to this Cannon.  If a figure cannot be placed adjacent to this Cannon after it's movement, that figure may not contribute to it's movement.

    CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK (Range-8 Attack- 3)
    If an order marker is placed on an Army Card of a figure adjacent to this Cannon, instead of taking a turn with that figure(s) you may use Cannon Special Attack.  To use Cannon Special Attack Choose a space up to 8 spaces away in a straight line from this Cannon's target point to be attacked.  All figures on the chosen space, or adjacent to the chosen space are affected by the Cannon Blast Special Attack.  Roll attack dice once for all affected figures.  Each figure rolls defense dice separately.  If a Destructible Object occupies the chosen space, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    (blank) Cannoneers
    NWHC Wave ? – Wave Title - Pack Title


    Figure: Game, Set, Figure Name, Figure #

    General:  Einar
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Common Squad
    Class: Artillerist (?)
    Personality: Precise
    Medium 5

    Life: 1
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense: 3
    55ish Points

    CANNONEERS
    For each squad of the (blank) Cannoneers drafted, you may include a Cannon (movable) Destructible Object.

    CANNON MASTERY
    If a (blank) Cannoneer uses a Cannon instead of taking his normal turn, you may use Movable and Cannon Blast Special Attack in the same turn.

    ARTILLERY EXPERTS
    For each (blank) Cannoneer adjacent to the Cannon using Cannon Blast Special Attack you may add 1 to the attack, to a maximum of +2.

    here are some stuff from the fortress door

    -Rulings and Clarifications-

       Which Special Powers and Attacks can target the door or other Destructible Objects?
       Per the Fortress instructions: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

       Remember, that the Door is not a figure, but it can be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked, with some exceptions.

       The Door does not have a size. Special Powers/Special Attacks that target or enhance the attacking figure if the defending “figure” is a certain size will not work. Examples: Deadeye Dan’s Ullar Enhanced Rifle Special Attack, Jotun’s Throw, Sir Denrick’s Giant Killer, & Gladiatron’s Cyberclaw.
       The Door cannot be destroyed. Special Powers/Special attacks that even mention “destroy” as one of the effects cannot be used against the Door. Examples: Deadeye Dan’s Sharpshooter & Grimnak’s Chomp.
       The Door is not a figure. Special Powers that are not necessarily an attack cannot affect the door. Examples: Morsbane’s Rod of Negation, Ne-Gok-Sa’s Mind Shackle, & Agent Carr’s Ghost Walk. Also, the door is not affected by Raelin’s Defensive Aura.

       Do enhancements work on the attacking figure when attacking the door?
       Yes, but only if they do not specify anything about the size of the defending figure. Sir Denrick’s Giant Killer for example, cannot affect Sir Denrick because the Door doesn’t have a size. Normal enhancements like Taelord’s Attack Aura, Omnicron Sniper’s Deadly Shot, Agent Carr’s Sword of Reckoning 4, and Valguard’s First Assault 3, and effects like those will all work when those figures attack the door. See the previous question for more detail on which Special Powers/Special Attacks can affect the door.

       Is there any limitation on when the door's controller can open and close it?
       You may only open/close the door during your teammate's turns, or your own turn. You can now no longer open or close the door during an opponent's turn, so before you finish yours or your teammate's turn, make sure the door is in the position that you want it!
       (Hasbro FAQ)

       Can the shotgun, grenades, and explosion target the Door and hurt someone on the other side?
       These attacks will hit someone behind the door because they are adjacent to the door - being behind the closed door does not stop the ability from affecting them.

       Does Jotun's wild swing interact with the door as though it were a figure?
       If Jotun is adjacent to the door, and an enemy figure is on the other side of the door, adjacent to the door, then the wild swing can hit the enemy figure. If the enemy figure is adjacent to the door and Jotun uses his wild swing on the figure, the door will also be attacked.

       Does height advantage work against the Door?
       Height advantage and extreme height advantage apply against the door.

    Tried to do this so we didn't need a rule book for the destructible object.  Not sure if we want to go down this road but I think it could add a bit. The way this is written up definitely needs some clean up for certain things (engagement strikes, etc. ) It also limits the Cannon to the Cannoneers being drafted unless a scenario allows for Cannons. I kind of like the destructible object card with it's abilities listed there and the way this is heading, but I am not sold on it by any means so completely open to changes in direction, powers, everything.
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    Nomad

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:30 pm

    Thanks Derek. Very well thought out and detailed. I think we are getting much closer.

    Only a few questions at this point:

    1) Do we want to limit the Cannon Blast Special Attack to only a straight line? I'm tending towards no, but could be persuaded otherwise.
    2) For Cannon Mastery, it states that the Cannoneers can use Movable and the SA on the same turn, but I'm not sure that I see were other figures can't do both on the same turn as well. I know it says "instead of taking a turn" for both powers, and maybe that implies they can only do one or the other, but it might be wise to include that in the text of each power (that they can't do both) or at least add that to the Rulings and Clarifications.
    3) By making them a Common Squad and Common Cannon - this means that I will end up buying four of them. How much money is the set? If too much, I might be suggesting to make them unique.

    Terrific work - I am feeling much better about this.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:34 am

    What if you went the traditional Hero + Squad bonding route with the Cannon being the Hero?

    Order Markers go on the Cannoneers squad and after taking a turn, they can take a turn with the Cannon.

    You give the Cannon a Reverse “Carry” ability a la Brunak except after at least 3 squads move, place the Cannon adjacent to them. Maybe “Mobile Artillery.” The Cannon itself has a Move 0 and cannot move on its own. We can have that in the FAQ just like the Marro Hive’s notes are in the SotM Rule Book.

    You give the Cannon a Special Attack that requires Order Markers and adjacent figures to use – unless you have the Cannoneers who are “bonding” with it for attacking only like – “Instead of attacking with the Cannoneers, you may take a turn with a Siege Weapon adjacent to at least 2 Cannoneers. During that turn the Siege Weapon may only attack.”

    The Cannoneers can have a Siege Weapon Expertise Aura (+ 1 Attack, + 1 Defense for adjacent Siege Weapons). This will bump the “normal attack” of the Cannon but only when used by the Cannoneers. There can still be a Special Attack listed on the Cannon card, and maybe the squad can re-roll attack dice that were not skulls.

    CANNON
    Mobile Artillery (“Carry”)
    Crew Required (cannot attack unless at least 3 figures are adjacent)(2 if they are Cannoneers)
    Special Attack

    CANNONEERS
    Siege Weapon Attack Bonding
    Siege Weapon Expertise Aura
    Artillery Specialist (re-roll attack dice with Cannon, etc.)


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    Derek S

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:34 am

    Damon wrote:1) Do we want to limit the Cannon Blast Special Attack to only a straight line? I'm tending towards no, but could be persuaded otherwise.
    2) For Cannon Mastery, it states that the Cannoneers can use Movable and the SA on the same turn, but I'm not sure that I see were other figures can't do both on the same turn as well. I know it says "instead of taking a turn" for both powers, and maybe that implies they can only do one or the other, but it might be wise to include that in the text of each power (that they can't do both) or at least add that to the Rulings and Clarifications.
    3) By making them a Common Squad and Common Cannon - this means that I will end up buying four of them. How much money is the set? If too much, I might be suggesting to make them unique.

    1) Part of the reason I made the special an exploding attack was to overcome the limitations of a straight line. One of the big problems in the current wording is that it would act like Mimring's Fire Line which allows for multiple straight line possibilities. I would prefer that it was a straight line from the back of the cannon through the site point, but do see the limitations in that attack.
    2) I thought the "instead of taking a turn" language implies that. Putting that in Rulings and Clarifications is a good idea.
    3) $12 a box, which is a bit spendy but not horribly so. (I already have 4). If we did make them unique I would probably want to power them up a bit.


    Kai wrote:What if you went the traditional Hero + Squad bonding route with the Cannon being the Hero?

    Order Markers go on the Cannoneers squad and after taking a turn, they can take a turn with the Cannon.

    You give the Cannon a Reverse “Carry” ability a la Brunak except after at least 3 squads move, place the Cannon adjacent to them. Maybe “Mobile Artillery.” The Cannon itself has a Move 0 and cannot move on its own. We can have that in the FAQ just like the Marro Hive’s notes are in the SotM Rule Book.

    You give the Cannon a Special Attack that requires Order Markers and adjacent figures to use – unless you have the Cannoneers who are “bonding” with it for attacking only like – “Instead of attacking with the Cannoneers, you may take a turn with a Siege Weapon adjacent to at least 2 Cannoneers. During that turn the Siege Weapon may only attack.”

    The big reason I think the Cannon needs to be a destructible object and not a hero like the Hive, is because the Hive is a living organism while the cannon is inanimate object. I think keeping it an object is better and the way the current write up is the cannon basically has carry, has crew required, has a special attack. It doesn't have a normal attack on the downside. It doesn't have points so it really can't be drafted as written is the other real difference. I think we could implement point cost on the destructible object if we wanted to make it draft-able.

    So if we did make it a hero there would be a few questions needed to be addressed. If it is your last army card, what happens? Could it be mindshackled? Could it be destroyed in one roll (Morsbane, Atlaga, etc.)?
    Maybe instead of Destructible Object we call it Destructible Weapon so that if a future Weapon is made the Cannoneers could utilize their expertise on that weapon as well. I don't know, this is going to be a tough design to whittle through.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:34 pm

    Derek S wrote:
    So if we did make it a hero there would be a few questions needed to be addressed.  If it is your last army card, what happens?  Could it be mindshackled?  Could it be destroyed in one roll (Morsbane, Atlaga, etc.)?  
    Maybe instead of Destructible Object we call it Destructible Weapon so that if a future Weapon is made the Cannoneers could utilize their expertise on that weapon as well.  I don't know, this is going to be a tough design to whittle through.

    Ha! Good point, I forgot about Mindshackle!!

    This one really makes me think : )

    A Destructible Weapon card is probably the way to go.
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    Nomad

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:51 pm

    Derek wrote:1) Part of the reason I made the special an exploding attack was to overcome the limitations of a straight line. One of the big problems in the current wording is that it would act like Mimring's Fire Line which allows for multiple straight line possibilities. I would prefer that it was a straight line from the back of the cannon through the site point, but do see the limitations in that attack.
    2) I thought the "instead of taking a turn" language implies that. Putting that in Rulings and Clarifications is a good idea.
    3) $12 a box, which is a bit spendy but not horribly so. (I already have 4). If we did make them unique I would probably want to power them up a bit.

    1) Good explanation. Much of the maneuvering by the squad will be to rotate the cannon around rather than push it forward. Good idea and I'm on board. In real life, cannons have limitations as well - lets go for it.
    2) The "instead of taking a turn" language does imply that, so let's get it in the clarifications
    3) Horribly spendy for me . . . but, I like the concept of making them commons, so I'm on board with it. I will either wait for them to come on sale, proxy, or spend my birthday money Smile

    Kai wrote:A Destructible Weapon card is probably the way to go.

    I concur with both of you. Destructible Weapon card! The way the power reads, the only way you can get a cannon, is by drafting the Cannoneers. But, the cannon needs to have points attached to it (or else the cannoneers are way underpriced).
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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:13 am

    I have done an hour plus of research on this type of cannon . . . it was used in medieval times in the fields.

    I had to hunt down a decent template and then recreate a destructible object card (found something that will work with modifications from a dude in France). It will turn out great.

    I have the card started, but it is late. I'll pick this up tomorrow . . .

    FIELD ARTILLERY CANNON
    NWHC Wave ? – Wave Title - Pack Title


    PDF DOWNLOAD, front
    PDF DOWNLOAD, back


    Figure: Confrontation, The Age of Rag'narok, Griffins of Akkylannie - Cannon Unit Box
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    Nomad

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:24 pm

    I tried to put the text of the two powers on the card . . . and we need to cut about 1/3 of the words in get it to fit. Below are my proposals:

    FIELD ARTILLERY CANNON
    NWHC Wave ? – Wave Title - Pack Title



    PDF DOWNLOAD, front
    PDF DOWNLOAD, back

    Life- 6
    Defense- 6

    MOVABLE ARTILLERY
    Adjacent figures can move this cannon instead of taking a turn. Medium figures can each move this cannon 1 space and large or huge figures can each move this cannon 2 spaces, to a maximum of 5 spaces. Place all figures adjacent to this cannon that contributed to its movement.

    Simpler version? What other issues there are can be dealt with in the clarifications. By including "instead of taking a turn" it means that the figures would have to start adjacent to it. The part about having to end adjacent to it can be included in the clarifications.

    CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
    Range 10. Lob 16. Attack 2.
    After revealing an Order Marker on an Army Card with figure(s) adjacent to this cannon, instead of taking a turn with that Army Card, you may use Cannon Blast Special Attack. Choose a space up to 10 spaces away in a straight line from this cannon's target point to attack. No clear line of sight is needed. Any figures adjacent to the targeted space are also affected by Cannon Blast Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. If a Destructible Object occupies the chosen space, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    Not much simpler, just reworked the wording slightly. Increased range from 8 to 10. Dropped attack from 3 to 2. Added Lob and that no clear sight is needed. Most of it is modeled after the Airborne Elite's Grenade special.

    Let me know what you think. I will start working on the cannoneers card soon.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:11 pm

    Question: is the Cannon, as a destructible object, able to be teleported by Saylind?
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    Nomad

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:04 pm

    No. The Cannon is not a figure and cannot be summoned.

    Here is the clarifications for the door/destructible object from heroscapers that Derek posted a while back in this thread.

    -Rulings and Clarifications-

    Which Special Powers and Attacks can target the door or other Destructible Objects?
    Per the Fortress instructions: The Door may be attacked by a normal attack, a special attack, or by special powers that only cause wounds. The Door cannot be targeted or attacked by special powers that may “destroy” it in one attack.

    Remember, that the Door is not a figure, but it can be targeted and attacked much the same way a figure is targeted and attacked, with some exceptions.

    The Door does not have a size. Special Powers/Special Attacks that target or enhance the attacking figure if the defending “figure” is a certain size will not work. Examples: Deadeye Dan’s Ullar Enhanced Rifle Special Attack, Jotun’s Throw, Sir Denrick’s Giant Killer, & Gladiatron’s Cyberclaw.
    The Door cannot be destroyed. Special Powers/Special attacks that even mention “destroy” as one of the effects cannot be used against the Door. Examples: Deadeye Dan’s Sharpshooter & Grimnak’s Chomp.
    The Door is not a figure. Special Powers that are not necessarily an attack cannot affect the door. Examples: Morsbane’s Rod of Negation, Ne-Gok-Sa’s Mind Shackle, & Agent Carr’s Ghost Walk. Also, the door is not affected by Raelin’s Defensive Aura.

    Do enhancements work on the attacking figure when attacking the door?
    Yes, but only if they do not specify anything about the size of the defending figure. Sir Denrick’s Giant Killer for example, cannot affect Sir Denrick because the Door doesn’t have a size. Normal enhancements like Taelord’s Attack Aura, Omnicron Sniper’s Deadly Shot, Agent Carr’s Sword of Reckoning 4, and Valguard’s First Assault 3, and effects like those will all work when those figures attack the door. See the previous question for more detail on which Special Powers/Special Attacks can affect the door.

    Is there any limitation on when the door's controller can open and close it?
    You may only open/close the door during your teammate's turns, or your own turn. You can now no longer open or close the door during an opponent's turn, so before you finish yours or your teammate's turn, make sure the door is in the position that you want it!
    (Hasbro FAQ)

    Can the shotgun, grenades, and explosion target the Door and hurt someone on the other side?
    These attacks will hit someone behind the door because they are adjacent to the door - being behind the closed door does not stop the ability from affecting them.

    Does Jotun's wild swing interact with the door as though it were a figure?
    If Jotun is adjacent to the door, and an enemy figure is on the other side of the door, adjacent to the door, then the wild swing can hit the enemy figure. If the enemy figure is adjacent to the door and Jotun uses his wild swing on the figure, the door will also be attacked.

    Does height advantage work against the Door?
    Height advantage and extreme height advantage apply against the door.
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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:11 pm

    Doing some brainstorming here . . . please let me know what you think. I tweaked just a couple of things from Derek's last proposal 19 months ago.

    ARTILLIEURS DU LOIRE (did a bunch of research on a fitting name - see Joan of Arc and the siege of Orleans and the battles of the Loire River. Also the name can be applied to the French Revolution and even the Napoleonic wars).

    NWHC Wave ? – Wave Title - Pack Title



    PDF DOWNLOAD, front
    PDF DOWNLOAD, back

    Figure: Game, Set, Figure Name, Figure #

    General: Einar
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Common Squad
    Class: Cannoneer
    Personality: Disciplined
    Medium 5

    Life: 1
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense: 3
    60 Points

    CANNONEERS
    You may include one Field Artillery Cannon in your army with each squad of Artillieurs du Loire.

    CANNON MASTERY
    The Artillieurs du Loire may use Movable Artillery and Cannon Blast Special Attack in the same turn.

    ARTILLERY EXPERTS
    For each Artillieurs du Loire adjacent to a Field Artillery Cannon using Cannon Blast Special Attack, you may add 1 to the attack, up to a maximum of +2.


    Character Bio:
    Copy text here.


    - Rulings and Clarifications -

    - N/A

    - Combinations and Synergies -

    Synergy Benefits Offered

    -Figure Name: Power
    Plain Text

    Synergy Benefits Received

    -Figure Name: Power
    Plain Text

    Synergy Imposed

    -Figure Name: Power
    Plain Text
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    Derek S

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:15 am

    Without thinking this out completely, these are my thoughts.

    ARTILLIEURS DU LOIRE's card

    1-I think I like inclusion of 1 Field artillery cannon per squad, and that they get the bonus of moving and attacking the same turn with Cannon blast SA (in case there is a cannon with the same attack).
    2- Artillery Experts, I am not so sure that this should be limited to just the Field artillery cannon, maybe just cannon blast in case another cannon is created with the same special.


    FIELD ARTILLERY CANNON
    1- MOVABLE ARTILLERY -I am not sure this should be listed on the card, or listed in a rule book like the door being opened. Listed on the card means simplicity in gameplay. Rule book would clarify movement for all destructible weapons, open up space on the card, and be a whole lot clearer. It would have to change from destructible object, to moveable weapon or some other name, to get it separated in the rule sense.
    2- like the Cannon blast rewording.
    3- If we remove movable artillery from the card text, maybe add a 2nd power?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:36 am


    MOVABLE ARTILLERY
    Adjacent figures can move this cannon instead of taking a turn. Medium figures can each move this cannon 1 space and large or huge figures can each move this cannon 2 spaces, to a maximum of 5 spaces. Place all figures adjacent to this cannon that contributed to its movement.

    So a squad of 3 medium figures can move the Cannon 3 spaces?  3 spaces doesn't seem very far.  What about Road terrain bonus?  I assume that the Cannon will be on a peanut base, but I guess it could be on a large round base.

    Maybe the Cannoneers add +1 move and +1 attack to the Cannon.  That would be a move of 4 spaces at least with a full squad.

    CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
    Range 10. Lob 16. Attack 2.
    After revealing an Order Marker on an Army Card with figure(s) adjacent to this cannon, instead of taking a turn with that Army Card, you may use Cannon Blast Special Attack. Choose a space up to 10 spaces away in a straight line from this cannon's target point to attack. No clear line of sight is needed. Any figures adjacent to the targeted space are also affected by Cannon Blast Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. If a Destructible Object occupies the chosen space, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    I think that the base Attack should be at least greater than a shotgun blast from a Cowboy : )  How about 4 Attack?  The Cannoneers can maybe re-roll blanks on the attack.  Also, I think LoB 16 is too high.  This would allow an attack 'over' a basic castle wall (11 without a battlement) and certainly over a ruin (6 height), but that seems more like a mortar than an old-school cannon.

    Can Cannons attack a 'space' within Line of Sight - and then all figures occupying and adjacent to the space are affected?  If the attacker does not have line of sight, the defender adds 1 defense die.

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    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

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