Cryptic Alliance

Digital Domain for the Discussion and Discourse of Dungeons, Dragons, and other Distractions


    cannoneers box brainstorming

    Share
    avatar
    Lord Kai

    Posts : 1647
    Join date : 2013-05-26
    Location : Seattle

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:43 pm

    This was a cool article on Civil War era artillery : )

    http://www.civilwaracademy.com/civil-war-artillery.html

    The article mentions that the cannon can fire at a range of up to a mile. How many hexes is that? : ) Not that 'Scape is realistic since Krav Maga pistols only fire 35 feet : P


    avatar
    Lord Kai

    Posts : 1647
    Join date : 2013-05-26
    Location : Seattle

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:28 pm

    Here are some new ideas:

    Make the Cannon a species:  Field Artillery.  It shortens the name and lets us create a basic moving rule for Field Artillery (should we add more).

    The Cannon is less effective without the ARTILLIEURS DU LOIRE.  

    Also changes the order of Move/Attack.  Let's say there is a 3-person squad.  2 figures 'move' the cannon and the 3rd 'attacks' with it.  If you have a 4-person squad, 3 can move and 1 can shoot.  Or - 2 can move, 1 can shoot, and the other can attack normally.


    ==

    CANNON
    Field Artillery Destructible Object

    Life- 4
    Defense- 4

    FIELD ARTILLERY
    Instead of moving and attacking normally, adjacent figures can move this Cannon. For each medium figure, move this cannon 1 space.  For each large or huge figure, move this Cannon 3 spaces.  Add 2 move if the cannon moves on road spaces.  The maximum move for a Cannon is 6 spaces. After moving, place all figures that contributed to its movement adjacent to this Cannon.


    CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
    Range 10. LoB 8. Attack 2 or 4
    Instead of attacking normally, an adjacent figure may attack with Cannon Blast Special Attack.  Choose a non-adjacent space up to 10 spaces away.  If that space is in clear sight, roll 4 attack dice.  If that space is not in clear sight, roll 2 attack dice.  Any figures occupying or adjacent to the targeted space are also affected by Cannon Blast Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. If a Destructible Object occupies the chosen space, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    ==

    ARTILLIEURS DU LOIRE
    General: Einar
    Species: Human
    Common Squad
    Class: Soldiers
    Personality: Disciplined
    Medium 5

    Life: 1
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense: 3
    70 Points

    CANNONEERS
    You may include one Cannon in your army with each squad of Artillieurs du Loire.

    CANNON MASTERY
    When moving Field Artillery, each Artillieurs du Loire activated adds 1 additional move to the Field Artillery piece.  

    FIELD ARTILLERY EXPERTS
    For each Artillieurs du Loire adjacent to a Field Artillery piece, add 1 to that Field Artillery’s defense value.  When Artillieurs du Loire attacks with Cannon Blast Special Attack, add 1 to the special attack and increase LoB to 16.
    avatar
    Nomad

    Posts : 1956
    Join date : 2013-05-26

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:07 am

    Good to see that we are moving with this design and figures! Both cards with powers in my recent proposal are taken straight from the last stats/powers proposed. I was just using that as a place to start and I am happy to move in any direction. Responses in red with in the following quotes.

    Derek wrote:ARTILLIEURS DU LOIRE's card

    1-I think I like inclusion of 1 Field artillery cannon per squad, and that they get the bonus of moving and attacking the same turn with Cannon blast SA (in case there is a cannon with the same attack). This was your idea, Derek. I like it too.
    2- Artillery Experts, I am not so sure that this should be limited to just the Field artillery cannon, maybe just cannon blast in case another cannon is created with the same special. Yes, we can word it so that it works with any cannon blast special attack.


    FIELD ARTILLERY CANNON
    1- MOVABLE ARTILLERY -I am not sure this should be listed on the card, or listed in a rule book like the door being opened. Listed on the card means simplicity in gameplay. Rule book would clarify movement for all destructible weapons, open up space on the card, and be a whole lot clearer. It would have to change from destructible object, to moveable weapon or some other name, to get it separated in the rule sense.
    HOSS created a rule book for weapons and destructible objects. I really don't want to go down that road, as discussed before, and would like to keep the game play simple and would prefer to keep it as a destructible object . . . my two cents. We can open up tons of space on the card! We can just use the back (make it double sided), which is what HOSS does. Put the generic stuff on the back (moveable, etc) and the powers specific to this cannon on the front.
    2- like the Cannon blast rewording. Thanks, I didn't change much from your last suggested wording.
    3- If we remove movable artillery from the card text, maybe add a 2nd power?
    We can probably add a couple more powers/rules if we use the back of the card as well.

    Kai wrote:
    So a squad of 3 medium figures can move the Cannon 3 spaces?  3 spaces doesn't seem very far.  What about Road terrain bonus?  I assume that the Cannon will be on a peanut base, but I guess it could be on a large round base.
    Those cannons are heavy and hard to move. I always pictured them being on a peanut base. I imagined most of the movement would be rotating the cannon. Figures get the road movement bonus, not objects (per the RttFF rulebook).

    Maybe the Cannoneers add +1 move and +1 attack to the Cannon.  That would be a move of 4 spaces at least with a full squad. Sure, we can continue to brainstorm.

    Kai wrote:I think that the base Attack should be at least greater than a shotgun blast from a Cowboy : )  How about 4 Attack?  The Cannoneers can maybe re-roll blanks on the attack.  Also, I think LoB 16 is too high.  This would allow an attack 'over' a basic castle wall (11 without a battlement) and certainly over a ruin (6 height), but that seems more like a mortar than an old-school cannon.
    Sure, we can bump the attack. I would be hesitant to make it too powerful though - I would prefer keeping the Cannoneers points reasonable (less than 100). The Lob for the Airborne throwing grenades is 12. I just figured the cannon could shoot higher than that.

    Can Cannons attack a 'space' within Line of Sight - and then all figures occupying and adjacent to the space are affected?  If the attacker does not have line of sight, the defender adds 1 defense die.
    That is how I thought of the attack, yes. Adding a defense die if it does not have clear sight would be a good option, or decreasing the attack of the cannon by one.

    Kai wrote:This was a cool article on Civil War era artillery : )

    http://www.civilwaracademy.com/civil-war-artillery.html

    The article mentions that the cannon can fire at a range of up to a mile. How many hexes is that? : ) Not that 'Scape is realistic since Krav Maga pistols only fire 35 feet : P
    This cannon is a middle ages type cannon - not civil war (I did about an hour of research and found the exact type of cannon pictured). The cannoneers squad also seem to come from the late middle ages as well.

    Per Kai's last post. Let's continue the brainstorming! I think we need to keep the name of FIELD ARTILLERY CANNON to distinguish it from other cannons if we ever include those in the future. By creating a card that utilizes both the front on the back of the destructible object, we will have more room to provide specific rules for each item around movement and attacks. I like the suggestions for the Cannon Blast Special Attack. We will have to discuss allowing non-cannoneers to be able to move and attack on the same turn. My understanding was that Derek wanted to have only the cannoneers to be able to do that and I kind of agree (to not make this too powerful).
    avatar
    Derek S

    Posts : 1233
    Join date : 2013-05-26

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:59 pm

    Yeah this is still very much in brainstorming. Not opposed to using the back side of the card. By having a rulebook or FAQ sheet for DO'S I can envision it something like this
    Card Power
    Moveable 5

    FAQ sheet or Rulebook
    If an order marker is placed on an Army Card of a figure adjacent to a destructible Object with the Moveable power, instead of taking a turn with that figure(s) you may use Movable. For each Medium figure adjacent to this destructible Object with the Moveable power , this destructible object may be moved 1 space. For each Large or Huge figure adjacent to this destructible Object with the Moveable power , this destructible object may be moved 2 spaces, to a maximum of X spaces, where X is listed on the card. After moving this Cannon place all figures that contributed to the movement adjacent to this Cannon. If a figure cannot be placed adjacent to this Cannon after it's movement, that figure may not contribute to it's movement.


    Kind of a generic rule set along the lines of what Ixe doing. Or we could do something like this
    Front of the Destructible Object Card:
    Moveable 5
    (see back of card)
    Back of Card:
    where the movement rule of our destructible objects with the moveable power is listed.

    here we can open up a whole lot of other ideas that visually would be pretty simple
    Front of the Destructible Object Card
    Draftable 30
    Soldiers, pirates, (what ever else is appropriate) (see back of card).
    Back of Card:
    If you have a figure with this class you may draft this DO into your army for 30 pts.

    I think once we figure out how we want to accomplish this we can start working on the design, stat, aspect. So I think here are some options:
    1- Keep the Destructible Object card the same as Fortress Door and Breakable Wall. All special abilities be listed on card
    a. front only
    b. front and back
    c. Use front of card for special powers and rule set "titles" that we have and use back of card to explain the rules of "titles"
    d. Use front of card for special powers and rule set "titles" that we have and have rulebook or faq sheet to explain.

    2- Deviate our Destructible Object cards from the Fortress Door and Breakable Wall.
    a. Make it like a regular army card in layout (have species, class, personality, movement, attack, etc)
    b. Make a modified version (like where Ixe was heading with his)

    Let me know if there are any other versions that you can think of, I will contemplate a bit myself.

    Of these choices so far I would be in favor of 1 c., as once you understand the rule set of movable, or draftable, or whatever, you wouldn't need to flip the card over during gameplay (much like we rarely have to reference the rule books any more.) This also would open up different possibilities in the simplest manner without creating a bunch of different rule books or faq sheets. A couple of things I would love to see are boats and siege towers. An example of a boats card.
    Front
    Movable on Water 8
    (see back of Card)

    Draftable 50
    (see back of Card)

    Jacobs Ladder
    (See back of Card)

    SHIP CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
    Range 10. Lob 16. Attack 2.
    After revealing an Order Marker on an Army Card of a figure on the pilots chair, and using Movable on Water, for each figure adjacent to Ship Cannon you may use SHIP CANNON SPECIAL ATTACK. A figure may not be counted as adjacent to more than 1 Ship Cannon. Choose a space up to 10 spaces away in a straight line from this cannon's target point to attack. No clear line of sight is needed. Any figures adjacent to the targeted space are also affected by Cannon Blast Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. If a Destructible Object occupies the chosen space, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    SINKABLE
    If a Boat is destroyed all figures that occupy the Boat that do not have enough movement to reach land are destroyed. If a figure has enough movement to reach land, that figure receives 1 wound.

    Any how, just thinking if we would get in trouble by having other DO's with the same format, but I think we could make it work.

    avatar
    Nomad

    Posts : 1956
    Join date : 2013-05-26

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:19 am

    Sorry for taking so long to respond to your very thoughtful post. It is a lot to digest.

    I also agree with 1C. That seems like a simple solution. Whatever we decide, I would like to stay away from rule books and extra things to look up and try to find - they just make game play that much more challenging, in my opinion.

    If the power can be listed on the front of the card and the description on the back (without a rule book, then I am good). But, slight nuance in power might mean more than slight nuances in powers. I would not mind just having the powers with text listed front to back of card . . . (at the end of the front side, include a "more powers on back"). Flipping a card over is a whole lost easier than looking for a rule book and thinking about how the slight nuance really is or isn't so slight . . . and a whole lot easier than creating a rule book.

    My thoughts, anyways. Not sure if my desire for simpleness is coming across simply or not.

    Boats, ship cannons, ladders . . . oh my.
    avatar
    Derek S

    Posts : 1233
    Join date : 2013-05-26

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:18 pm

    FIELD ARTILLERY CANNON
    DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECT

    Life- 4
    Defense- 5

    DRAFTABLE 40
    This Field Artillery Cannon may be drafted in to your army for 40 points.

    MOVABLE 6 (5)
    After revealing an order marker on an army card adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon you may use Movable 6. For each friendly medium figure adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon, this Field Artillery Cannon may be moved 1 space. For each large or huge friendly figure adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon, this Field Artillery Cannon may be moved 2 spaces to a maximum of 6 (5) spaces. After using Movable 6, place all figures that contributed to this Field Artillery Cannon's movement adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon. If a figure is unable to be placed adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon, that figure may not contribute to movable 6.

    CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK
    Range 10. Lob 10. Attack 2 + special
    After revealing an order marker on an army card adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon, instead of attacking normally you may use Cannon Blast Special Attack. Choose a space to attack in a straight line from the back of this Field Artillery Cannon through the front. No clear line of site is needed. Any figures on the chosen space, or adjacent to the chosen space are affected by Cannon Blast Special attack. Roll 2 attack dice once for all affected figures, 3 attack dice if that space is in clear line of site. Each figure rolls defense dice seperately. If a Destructible Object occupies the chosen space, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    CANNON SHRAPNEL
    If this Field Artillery Cannon is destroyed, all adjacent figures receive 1 wound.

    ==

    ARTILLIEURS DU LOIRE
    General: Einar
    Species: Human
    Common Squad
    Class: Soldiers
    Personality: Disciplined
    Medium 5

    Life: 1
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense: 3
    45 Points

    CANNON MASTERY
    When moving a Cannon, each adjacent activated Artillieurs du Loire adds 1 additional move to the Cannon.

    CANNON EXPERTS
    For each Artillieurs du Loire adjacent to a Cannon, add 1 to that Cannon's defense value. When Artillieurs du Loire attacks with Cannon Blast Special Attack, add 2 to the range, 4 to the lob, and 1 to the attack.

    Trying to sum up where we are at with this. I realize some of the powers are long winded, but wanted to make them as official and informational as possible to start with. Without a cannon the Artillieurs du Loire are not good so 45 pts might be high. The Field Artillery Cannon might be low at 40 pts, I am not sure if we should state that if there are no friendly figures that are not destructible objects left in your army, destroy this Field Artillery Cannon? or if the way movable is stated it implies that the opponent may use the cannon? Still a few details to work out I think. Let me know what you all think.
    avatar
    Nomad

    Posts : 1956
    Join date : 2013-05-26

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:55 pm

    Hip-hip-hooray! Let's get moving on this. I would love to start play testing them soon. I will reread the thread and post more deliberate thoughts soon.
    avatar
    Lord Kai

    Posts : 1647
    Join date : 2013-05-26
    Location : Seattle

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:58 pm

    Very cool ideas!

    I think the squad (Artillieurs du Loire) should just be 30 points.  They are about as tough as Nagrubs and they don't have bonding of any sort.  If they are 30 points and the Cannon is 40 - that is a 70 point, single Special Attack.  Less than Johnny Shotgun Sullivan but less maneuverable.

    You've also made the Cannon able to be drafted by anyone, not just the Artillieurs du Loire so they should be cheap - since they only do one thing (sort of like terrain-based figures).

    --

    For the Cannon - with a full squad of 3 - it moves a maximum of 3 spaces and will have trouble moving up elevations (like most double-spacers).

    For moving, is it "After revealing an order marker on an army card adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon .. "   Does this mean "After revealing an order marker on an army card [with at least one figure] adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon ... " you may use Moveable?

    What happens if I have 1 Blastatron next to the Cannon along with 4 Gladiatrons?  I reveal on the Blast - can the Blast + 4 Glads then move with the Cannon 5 spaces?  Or just the Blastatron?

    --
    For play-testing, I'd love to see Zombies with Cannons!!!  You can move 6 Zombies adjacent to the Cannon pretty easily while other Zombies that were engaged are still attacking : )

    I'd love to see the Cannon work with Kato and the Ashigaru but sounds like he'd need to be adjacent to the Cannon when his OM is revealed.

    --

    We could always make it so only the Artillieurs can use the Cannon to avoid lots of questions/play-tests/broken combinations.
    avatar
    Derek S

    Posts : 1233
    Join date : 2013-05-26

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:42 am

    kai wrote:For moving, is it "After revealing an order marker on an army card adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon .. " Does this mean "After revealing an order marker on an army card [with at least one figure] adjacent to this Field Artillery Cannon ... " you may use Moveable?

    What happens if I have 1 Blastatron next to the Cannon along with 4 Gladiatrons? I reveal on the Blast - can the Blast + 4 Glads then move with the Cannon 5 spaces? Or just the Blastatron?

    Yes on with at least one figure

    On the 2nd question you would be able to use both the Blasty and Glady's, kind of giving the cannon a carry power, but would help with moving that cannon.

    I like the idea of allowing anyone to draft the cannon into the army, especially for castle siege games. If the cannon has to be a bit more expensive to avoid broken combos I am okay with that. Maybe shorten range a bit or something, but the Airborne elite get 4 special attacks potentially and aren't broken. I think the biggest threat the cannon is going to have is against podding armies. I do think the cannon will take more than the average playtesting to dial in the points.

    kai wrote:
    For the Cannon - with a full squad of 3 - it moves a maximum of 3 spaces and will have trouble moving up elevations (like most double-spacers).
    If it is the Artilleurs du Loire they could move it 6 spaces with an activated squad of 3. If you had 3 different Artilleurs by 3 different cannons you could activate and receive the bonus from 1 Artilleur by each cannon (thus moving 3 cannons) and add any additional movement help from other figures. I think there might need to be language in the Cannon attack that only 1 cannon can be used to attack with per turn (maybe even only 1 cannon can be moved) I am getting confused on what to do with this.

    Sponsored content

    Re: cannoneers box brainstorming

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:31 am