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    W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:48 pm

    "Quick Draw" Hardin earned a couple of play tests over the last week. He was ambushed and destroyed by Capuans and the Gladiatrix in one battle . . . I didn't see the other.

    Notes from our discussion for the record:

    - 50 points seemed a little too much

    - The name of the first power was tentatively changed to LIGHTNING DRAW

    - The figures name will be changed, removing "Quick Draw" and replacing it with something else
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:17 am

    I am putting forth a proposal for name change and 1st power change for this figure. Thoughts? I also thought of Sudden Draw Hardin and Hasty Draw Hardin.

    Swift Draw Hardin

    General: Valkrill
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Unique Hero
    Class: Outlaw
    Personality: Dangerous
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 2
    45 Points

    SWIFT DRAW
    When Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a figure within 6 clear site spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack this turn. Swift Draw Hardin may not use Swift Draw more than twice per opponents turn.

    DOUBLE ATTACK
    When Swift Draw Hardin attacks, he may attack one additional time.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:11 am

    Here is the first attempt at the card, pending names/powers/playtesting/etc.



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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:10 am

    Swift Draw has 2 attacks of 3 at Range 6, with 5 Life and costs 45 points.
    Rattlesnake has 2 attacks of 2 at Range 5 (which could become 2 attacks of 3 with Ambush), with 4 Life and costs 50 points.

    I think Swift Draw should be more like 85 points.

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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:26 am

    Yes - we have had only one play test with this figure - a year ago. He seemed overpriced at 50 points then, so we dropped him to 45. Play tests will tell. Rattlesnake hasn't been tested, to my recollection. Points with both of these guys are in flux.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:08 pm

    Derek S wrote:Thanks for the suggestions, I will consider them closely soon.  I haven't painted this guy yet, so if you get started on him let me know the color scheme and I'll do the same.  I was thinking tan pants, blue shirt, tan hat, and maybe a brownish overcoat.   The bio is basically the story of Jon Wesley Hardin

    Maybe coming up with a name different than Hardin wouldn't be bad.


    How about "Wild Wesley Hardin" for his name?



    QUICK DRAW 13
    When Garrett Burns is targeted for a normal attack from an opponent’s non-adjacent figure within 7 clear sight spaces of Garrett Burns, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, the opponent’s figure receives 1 wound.

    Do we just want to adopt this power ... or go with something different?

    What do you think of increasing his Defense to 3 and going with:

    SHOOT OUT!
    Once per turn when Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a non adjacent figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Swift Draw Hardin, instead of rolling defense normally, you may reserve up to 2 dice for Shoot Out!  After rolling defense, one at a time for each die reserved, roll one combat die.  If you roll a skull, the attacking figuring receives one wound.


    Last edited by Lord Kai on Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:43 pm

    Nomad wrote:I am putting forth a proposal for name change and 1st power change for this figure. Thoughts? I also thought of Sudden Draw Hardin and Hasty Draw Hardin.

    Swift Draw Hardin

    General: Valkrill
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Unique Hero
    Class: Outlaw
    Personality: Dangerous
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 2
    45 Points

    SWIFT DRAW
    When Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a figure within 6 clear site spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack this turn. Swift Draw Hardin may not use Swift Draw more than twice per opponents turn.

    DOUBLE ATTACK
    When Swift Draw Hardin attacks, he may attack one additional time.

    Ran a play-test with Swift Draw. There was more melee than range but he was sort of a filler unit. A double-attack of 3 from Range 6 is pretty solid, and makes him worth more than 45-points. I'd say closer to 90 points.

    His Swift Draw is different than the recently released Garrett (who inflicts wounds only while Swift Draw inflicts a wound and the attacker cannot continue attacking - which is bad for Kaemon Awa and Agent Skahen). This could make him more deadly, so potentially 100 points {he has a 50/50 chance of killing 2 of the 3 Krav Maga agents}. We could limit it (and potentially reduce his points) by only allowing Swift Draw against Normal Attacks.

    Pretty solid. He actually rolled Shields on the 2 times he could have been hit with Swift Draw (both of which came from Rattlesnake Reed). But the potential is there : )
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:39 pm

    I kind of liked the idea of your "Shoot Out" power, but I was waiting to see if the designer was going to chime in on it first.

    I think we can proceed with a design here, keeping the original intention intact.

    With the "Shoot Out" option, what if we reserved only one die, instead of two . . . decided on after the attacker rolls his attack dice?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:24 am

    Nomad wrote:I kind of liked the idea of your "Shoot Out" power, but I was waiting to see if the designer was going to chime in on it first.

    I think we can proceed with a design here, keeping the original intention intact.

    With the "Shoot Out" option, what if we reserved only one die, instead of two . . . decided on after the attacker rolls his attack dice?


    Yeah, I like "Shoot Out" but maybe that is better for a different Hero. I suggested because of the similarities to what C3V put out but re-reading Swift Draw - and how it interrupts the attack - it is different enough for me.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:24 pm

    We could also bump Swift Draw to be "when Swift Draw, or a friendly figure adjacent to Swift Draw, is targeted ... "


    Gives him more opportunities to use his Special Power.

    And maybe keep his name 'Swift Draw Hardin' but change the power to LIGHTNING REFLEXES .. a different power name than character name.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:41 am

    "Swift Draw" as a name just isn't doing it for me. I like the adjacent figure suggestion, but it would bump his points (we could make it non-adjacent figures only). I also think that the figure should be able to continue to attack. Reading over the powers and thoughts, 45 points is probably too low.

    What do you think?

    Hasty Hardin

    General: Valkrill
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Unique Hero
    Class: Outlaw
    Personality: Dangerous
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 2
    80 Points

    LIGHTNING DRAW
    When Hasty Hardin, or a friendly figure adjacent to Hasty Hardin, is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear sight spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one combat die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound. Hasty Hardin may not use Swift Draw more than twice per opponents turn.

    DOUBLE ATTACK
    When Swift Draw Hardin attacks, he may attack one additional time.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:05 am

    He follows Valkrill .. so maybe Hacksaw Hardin?

    Could we give him a flaw to keep his points lower? Something like:

    BLOODTHIRSTY
    When Hacksaw Hardin attacks, if there is a wounded opponent's figure within range, Hacksaw must attack that figure. If there is more than one wounded figure, Hacksaw Hardin attacks the figure with the lowest remaining life.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:37 am

    What did you think about Lightning Draw and the change of leaving out that the attacking figure can't attack if a skull is rolled and that it only works against non-adjacent figures?

    I like Hasty Hardin more than Hacksaw Hardin, just looking at the sculpt of the figure.

    Regarding Bloodthirsty: Sounds diabolical, but what if there are two figures with the same remaining life?

    How about this as a flaw?

    WILD DRAW (CRAZED SHOT, RABID FIRE, still thinking of a name here)
    When Hasty Hardin, or a friendly figure adjacent to Hasty Hardin, is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear sight spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one combat die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound. If a skull is not rolled, choose a friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces or choose Hasty Hardin. The chosen figure receives 1 wound.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:50 am

    Nomad wrote:What did you think about Lightning Draw and the change of leaving out that the attacking figure can't attack if a skull is rolled and that it only works against non-adjacent figures?

    I like Hasty Hardin more than Hacksaw Hardin, just looking at the sculpt of the figure.

    Regarding Bloodthirsty: Sounds diabolical, but what if there are two figures with the same remaining life?

    How about this as a flaw?

    WILD DRAW (CRAZED SHOT, RABID FIRE, still thinking of a name here)
    When Hasty Hardin, or a friendly figure adjacent to Hasty Hardin, is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear sight spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one combat die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound. If a skull is not rolled, choose a friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces or choose Hasty Hardin. The chosen figure receives 1 wound.

    That is a little brutal on your own people.

    I'm okay with the original without the wound canceling attacks.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:45 am

    Nomad wrote:"Swift Draw" as a name just isn't doing it for me. I like the adjacent figure suggestion, but it would bump his points (we could make it non-adjacent figures only). I also think that the figure should be able to continue to attack. Reading over the powers and thoughts, 45 points is probably too low.

    What do you think?

    Hasty Hardin

    General: Valkrill
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Unique Hero
    Class: Outlaw
    Personality: Dangerous
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 2
    80 Points

    LIGHTNING DRAW
    When Hasty Hardin, or a friendly figure adjacent to Hasty Hardin, is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear sight spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one combat die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound. Hasty Hardin may not use Swift Draw more than twice per opponents turn.

    DOUBLE ATTACK
    When Swift Draw Hardin attacks, he may attack one additional time.

    I like this version with 2 suggestions:

    1.  Different Name.  "Hasty" just doesn't roll of the tongue and doesn't seem to fit a Valkrill cowboy.
    2.  Points bumped to 90.


    Josie has a triple attack at Range 5 (attacks of 3, 2, 1) and she is 70-points.  Hasty as a full double-attack at range 6 so that's why I am thinking 90 at least (especially with his defensive Swift Draw / Lightning Draw.
    http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=51718
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:15 am

    OK, let me try to summarize where we are at and suggest some solutions. I really like the 50-50 chance here . . .

    Mad Dog Hardin

    General: Valkrill
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Unique Hero
    Class: Outlaw
    Personality: Delirious
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 2
    80 Points

    MANIC DRAW
    When Mad Dog Hardin, or a friendly figure adjacent to Mad Dog Hardin, is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear sight spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one combat die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound. If a skull is not rolled, Mad Dog Hardin receives one wound.

    DOUBLE ATTACK
    When Swift Draw Hardin attacks, he may attack one additional time.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:42 pm

    Nomad wrote:OK, let me try to summarize where we are at and suggest some solutions. I really like the 50-50 chance here . . .

    Mad Dog Hardin

    MANIC DRAW
    When Mad Dog Hardin, or a friendly figure adjacent to Mad Dog Hardin, is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear sight spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one combat die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound. If a skull is not rolled, Mad Dog Hardin receives one wound.


    Not quite sure on this revision.  He's being targeted for an attack already and a 50/50 chance is good .. but if he misses the quick draw he takes a wound and is likely to receive more wounds from the attack.  He could go down pretty fast.  If that's the case, I'd drop him from 80-points down to 60-points.

    We're probably over-thinking this one. Maybe go back to the original with a tweak:

    SWIFT DRAW
    When Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a figure within 6 clear site spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack this turn. Swift Draw Hardin may not use Swift Draw more than twice per opponents turn.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:56 am


    SWIFT DRAW
    When Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear site spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack Swift Draw Hardin this turn. Swift Draw Hardin may not use Swift Draw more than twice per opponents turn.


    I really want to keep the not attack in place as that is what makes him a bit different. Let me absorb the other info. Some sort of "shoot out" needs to make a card.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:55 am

    Why not use it more than twice per turn?

    SWIFT DRAW
    When Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear site spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack Swift Draw Hardin this turn.

    The attacking figure can always target and attack someone else if they have enough life. I see this guy as a great counter to ranged common squads. Loving it. If a skull is not rolled, then play as normal.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:32 pm

    Damon wrote:
    SWIFT DRAW
    When Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear site spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack Swift Draw Hardin this turn.

    The attacking figure can always target and attack someone else if they have enough life. I see this guy as a great counter to ranged common squads. Loving it. If a skull is not rolled, then play as normal.

    I like this. Will update and summarize wear we are at soon.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:28 am

    "Quick Draw" Hardin
    NWHC Wave ? – Wave Title - Pack Title

    General: Valkrill
    Planet: Earth

    Species: Human
    Unique Hero
    Class: Outlaw
    Personality: Dangerous
    Medium 5

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 6
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 2
    90 Points

    SWIFT DRAW
    When Swift Draw Hardin is targeted for an attack from a non-adjacent figure within 6 clear site spaces, before that figures rolls attack dice, roll one die. If a skull is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack Swift Draw Hardin this turn

    DOUBLE ATTACK
    When "Quick Draw" Hardin attacks, he may attack one additional time.

    OP has been updated to this. Still not sure if we all agree with "Swift Draw" as the name, and not sure of the personality (it kind of works for me). Before this figure starts to get playtested, I also think we should decide if we only want Swift Draw to work against normal non-adjacent attacks. I could go either way here now that the attacker can choose a different figure to target. Another option on Swift Draw, because it is a defensive power, we could use "If a sheild is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack Swift Draw Hardin this turn."
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    Nomad

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:18 pm

    Derek wrote:Another option on Swift Draw, because it is a defensive power, we could use "If a shield is rolled the attacking figure receives 1 wound and cannot attack Swift Draw Hardin this turn."

    Do you mean as part of his defense roll?

    If so, that would lessen the interruption on turns (no need to roll an extra die).

    With 2 defense, the probability of rolling at least one shield is 55%, slightly better than 50% with a skull on one die as currently worded. If Hardin has height and rolls 3 defense dice, the probability of rolling a shield improves to 78%.

    If not, a shield on a single die is 33% versus 50%. It is kind of an offensive threat but just prior to being attacked. I would prefer to see it as a skull unless play testing warrants otherwise.

    Like "Dangerous" for personality.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W5 - Swift Draw Hardin - cowboy brainstorming

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:42 am

    If you go with the Combat Die mechanic - I would keep it a Skull when using the Special Power - to indicate a wound.

    If you were going with more of an Evil Eye - like Torin - for a ranged-counter strike - I think Shields would be more appropriate.


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