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    W1 Torver - RELEASED

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    Nomad

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    W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sun May 26, 2013 11:41 am

    Torver

    NWHC Wave 1 – The Fallen and the Faithful - Braunglayde's Reckoning

     

    PDF DOWNLOAD, front
    PDF DOWNLOAD, back

    Figure: Pathfinder, Rise of the Runelords, Stone Giant Champion #40

    General: Aquilla
    Planet: Feylund

    Species: Giant
    Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Huge 9

    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 3
    130 Points

    BOULDER THROW
    After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. If you choose a figure that is not a friendly Dauntless figure, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, or if the chosen figure was a friendly Dauntless figure, throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks. If you throw a friendly Dauntless figure you may choose a figure or destructible object adjacent to the thrown figure. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure or destructible object receives 1 wound.

    GAIN HIGH GROUND MOVEMENT BONDING
    After taking a turn with Torver, you may move Torver and all figures you control with any Gain High Ground special power up to 2 spaces each. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher.

    ROCK TOUGH
    When rolling defense dice, Torver always adds one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.


    Character Bio:
    Stone giants, shrouded in myth and hidden in the clouds of the high mountains of Feylund, were the custodians of the crag, cliff, and pass. In times past, when roused, the dauntless champion Torver would crash down boulders with the sound of thunder, hurl those invaders who dared to get too close, and rally his kind to keep watch over the highlands they called home. After centuries of defending the highlands of Feylund, Aquilla summoned the old and weary Torver to Vahalla. Inspired by new surroundings and a greater cause against more challenging foes, Torver regained his strength and stamina to bravely defend against Aquilla's enemies in the battle of all-time.


    - Rulings and Clarifications -

    - N/A

    - Combinations and Synergies -

    Synergy Benefits Offered

    -Small or medium Dauntless figures: Boulder Throw
    Friendly small or medium figures can be thrown without rolling the 20-sided die for Torver’s BOULDER THROW. After throwing a friendly Dauntless figure you may roll for the 20-sided die to wound an adjacent figure or destructible object to the friendly Dauntless figure. Small and Medium Dauntless figures include: Granite Guardians, Gorillitroopers.

    -Gain High Ground Movement Bonding: Torver
    After Torver takes a turn all figures with any GAIN HIGHT GROUND special power may move 2 spaces with Torver’s GAIN HIGH GROUND MOVEMENT BONDING. Figures with the GAIN HIGH GROUND special power include: Granite Guardians, Stenvar.

    Synergy Benefits Received

    -Stenvar: Dauntless Enhancement
    As a Dauntless figure with a 20-sided roll, Torver may benefit from Stenvar's DAUNTLESS ENHANCEMENT 20-sided roll enhancement.

    Synergy Imposed

    -Stenvar: Dauntless Avenger
    As a Huge Dauntless figure, Torver may benefit Stenvar's DAUNTLESS AVENGER attack and defense enhancement special power.

    -Sheildsmiths of Granite Keep: Steadfast
    Torver cannot move opponent's Sheildsmiths of Granite Keep with BOULDER THROW, due to STEADFAST.


    Last edited by Nomad on Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:15 am; edited 35 times in total (Reason for editing : updated OP)
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sun May 26, 2013 11:44 am

    Other ideas:

    A special attack that allows Torver to attack a figure with 3 dice, then an adjacent figure with 2 dice, and then one adjacent to the 2nd with 1 die. Think of the boulder he threw bouncing around.

    Allowing Torver to scale up a level without it costing a move.

    Thoughts?
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    Derek S

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    Torver

    Post  Derek S on Mon May 27, 2013 11:19 am

    I don't really think of boulders bouncing around so I am not a big fan of the special attack in your other ideas post. Perhaps it could be an attack that affects all spaces in a straight line from Torver- as long as each successive space was lower than the previous space- kind of a rolling rock downhill effect.

    I like the idea of scale, especially with the figurines long looking legs- maybe if moving onto a rock space Torver can count elevation changes of up to 2 height as a move of 1.

    I think all 3 current powers are appropriate though so I don't know if you want to change a power out.

    On Rock Tough, I would rather see Torver add 1 automatic sheild to special attacks than a normal attack. I see his rock form already being represented by his high defense. I also think rocks are generally considered to be immune from spell, fire, ice, etc. types of attacks.

    Current Elementars are the Granite Guardians and Sylvan Animae, correct.
    I don't really see Torver working a bunch of trees (although it is not a deal breaker for me) so maybe have Master of the Elementars (wouldn't mind a different name- I'll ponder this) be more exclusive like Elementars with the dauntless personality or elementar guards.
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    Nomad

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    RE: Derek's feedback

    Post  Nomad on Mon May 27, 2013 12:59 pm

    Thanks for the input, Derek.

    Good catch on the Sylvan - I didn't intend for this guy to move trees around.

    I like the idea regarding special attacks.

    Rewording the initial post in this thread.

    Comments?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed May 29, 2013 3:16 am

    So I was comparing Torver to a Granite Guardian and had a weird idea. What if Torver can "Throw" a Granite Guardian '_'

    I saw the boulder over his head and thought what if that is a transformed GG - and you then throw at your enemies? You get to (a) make a ranged attacked and (b) move a rather slow moving figure adjacent to your foe.

    This reminded me of C3G for Colossus' "Fast Ball Special" - which in the comics is Colossus throwing Wolverine at the bad guys.

    Might be a little radical to pull a C3G power over into Classic - but it sounds thematic and fun!



    Thoughts?


    Looks like there were different versions of Fast Ball Special too, so if you wanted to move away from the d20 - you could go with this earlier version:

    FASTBALL SPECIAL
    Instead of attacking, choose an adjacent small or medium figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 clear sight spaces of Colossus. Fastball Special may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged and can be placed adjacent to an enemy figure. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If Wolverine was the chosen figure, add 1 automatic skull to his normal attack this turn.


    Could become:

    FASTBALL SPECIAL
    Instead of attacking, choose an adjacent small or medium figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 clear sight spaces of Torver. Fastball Special may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged and can be placed adjacent to an enemy figure. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If a Granite Guardian was the chosen figure, add 1 automatic skull to his normal attack this turn.


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    Nomad

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    RE: Fastball Special

    Post  Nomad on Thu May 30, 2013 8:47 pm

    Thanks for the input.

    This is why I need everybody's suggestions!

    Very intriguing idea - let me roll it around in my head a bit.

    What do you think of his other powers/stats?

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu May 30, 2013 11:12 pm


    His point value seems high at 140. I can see an Iron Golem being a little tougher than him. I can see him at 110 points as is.

    MASTER OF THE ELEMENTARSDAUNTLESS DROVE?
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, instead of taking that turn with Torver, you may take a turn with up to three small or medium Dauntless Elementars you control that are within 8 clear sight spaces of Torver.

    I'd be okay with no sight space limit on the Bonding, so either taking a turn with Torver or taking a turn with Granite Guardians.

    Not that anyone uses them, but the Obsidian Guards are "Moltaren" "Ferocious" "Guards." Do you want to have an option for them to Bond with Torver?


    ROCK THROW
    If Torver has a height advantage on an opponent’s figure, it may add 2 to its range when attacking that figure.

    What about following the Master of the Hunt example, and giving him a permanent range of 4 and then rolling the d20 to see if his range can be extended that turn? I sort of find that annoying about MotH - but it might make sense for a giant that is looking for a good boulder to hurl at the enemy. The figure also has a spear at his waist that we could visualize him throwing.

    I would do this instead of the Fastball Special idea. The Fastball Special idea certainly increases the unit cost.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Fri May 31, 2013 12:40 am

    A general ?, how to quote just a section from a different post?

    For Dauntless Drove- what about adding that if you take a turn with Torver, "you may move each G.G. you control up to 1 space. This space may be up to 4 levels higher." Part of the reason for this is, if you take a turn with even only 1 G.G., you will be able to do this same per the G.G. card. This will keep the option of using Torver more viable. You could even add that if you don't take a turn with Torver (using the G.G.s instead) he may have the same bonus with Torver.

    I could go either way with the space limit on bonding.

    The Fastball Special is an interesting idea. With a little play off the theme you could make it Rock Toss. "If Torver is adjacent to a Granite Guardian you may choose a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver whose base is not higher. Roll 5 attack dice. If the defending figure is destroyed you may immediately place the G.G. on that space or you may choose an adjacent figure to the destroyed figure and Roll 5 attack dice again. if the the defending figure is destroyed you may immediately place the G.G. on that space. If either figure successfully defends,destroy the Granite Guardian. (combines fastball attack, pounce, and Damon's rolling rock effect.)

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri May 31, 2013 1:52 am

    RE: "Quote" -

    I typically copy/paste the text, and then highlight what I want to quote. You then click on the 12th button from the left for "quote." it has two little cartoon dialogue balloons.

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:48 am

    So I tried a play-test of our friendly neighborhood Stone Giant with the following stats:

    Unit Name: Torver

    General: Aquilla
    Species: Giant
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Size: Huge 8
    Points: 110

    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 3
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 5

    DAUNTLESS LEADERSHIP
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, instead of taking that turn with Torver, you may take a turn with up to three small or medium Dauntless Elementars you control that are within 8 clear sight spaces of Torver.

    ROCK THROW
    If Torver has height advantage, add 2 to his range.

    FASTBALL SPECIAL
    Instead of attacking, choose an adjacent small or medium figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 clear sight spaces of Torver. Fastball Special may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged and can be placed adjacent to an enemy figure. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If a Granite Guardian was the chosen figure, add 1 automatic skull to his normal attack this turn.


    ==
    The armies were:

    Torver (new)
    Granite Guardians x3
    Warden 816

    versus

    Concan
    Lord Grayson (new)
    Templars of Kyllian x3 (new)
    Bishop Thaddeus (new)
    Sacred Fusiliers x2


    --
    I was lucky that I was on a relatively small map, as the limit of 8-clear sight spaces for Torver's Bonding was tough to keep coordinated. I got in one "Fastball Special" though I failed to get a wound. It was pretty easy to decide to go with 3 Granite Guardians (three attacks versus one, plus the additional 'step' with the Guardians).

    Torver would have gone down early except for a Healing Potion on the board.

    I'd say Torver is pretty cool but he suffers from the traditional problem of Squad-Scape. He needs a little something extra to give him some POW! instead of taking just 3 other Granite Guardians. He would be amazing if you could take a turn with him -and- the GG (probably in the 130 point range). I don't think he's broken at 110 with no sight limit on Bonding.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:22 pm

    Two more play-tests in with Torver. Same armies.

    Second match was an odd blow-out. I took more risks with FORCED MARCH and that let the Templars get to an Attack Glyph early on. The Granites moved up and had a Defense glyph, and I was able to pull off a FAST BALL SPECIAL to throw a GG across the board and take out the Templar on the Attack Glyph. But then Torver went down to some bad defense on my side (3 Fusiliers with ranged attack - using attack glyph - and one using the +2 from Bishop Thaddeus' DIVINE GRIMORE. Then the Templars had both glyphs and it was over pretty fast.

    Third match was weird. The Templars grabbed a Glyph of Summoning and pulled Torver across the map. He was then out of his 8-space clear sight and had to slug it out - one attack action against four (Concan + Templars). He didn't last long, and by OM 3 he was destroyed and his team lost an OM. I thought that the GG's would just roll over at that point - but they put up a really good fight (and had some lucky defense rolls). Eventually though they fell to the superior numbers.

    I can't quite count the third match as a great playtest for Torver - but it did highlight the weakness of the 8-space bonding limit. So I'd recommend removing that. He also needs a buff of some sort. The 4 attack/5 defense is good for a 110-point hero. He would be better if his range was always 5.
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    Nomad

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    Stone Giant redesign

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:54 pm

    OK, based on everyone's input and my own thoughts, I have redone all of the powers and a couple of the stats. I didn't include every part of the suggestions, so read it carefully and then let me know what you think. Please see the original post.

    Thank you
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:08 pm

    I have no issues with where he currently is (If I am seeing all the changes that were made, didn't really notice too many).
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    Nomad

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    Crud!

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:11 pm

    Oops. I had everything changed up and for some reason it only got the last power change (ie, operator error). Let me try that again.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:31 pm

    Now I see the many changes. I am not sure if I like the original Rock Throw and some of the stats better originally or as you currently have them- I dunno. Are you happy with the new concept?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:54 pm

    The Granite Hurl will work really well with the Guardians - especially if you can throw them on height, as they would be 6 attack (3 base + 2 for landslide + 1 for being Dauntless).

    GRANITE HURL
    If Torver has a height advantage on an opponent’s figure, it may add 2 to its range when attacking that figure.
    Instead of attacking, choose one adjacent small or medium figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 clear sight spaces of Torver. Boulder Throw may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If the chosen figure is Dauntless, add 1 die to the normal attack this turn.


    The "all 5 stats" are nice but for 140-points, I could see him at Life-6 to parallel Master of the Hunt, Tul-Bak-Ra and Elthale.

    Your army builds at 140-points for normal tournaments will be light on Guardians.

    Torver 140
    Granite Guardians x3 440
    Zetacron 500
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    Nomad

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    Good point

    Post  Nomad on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:44 am

    You raise a good point about that awesome attack after the throw. Let me rethink this . . . I'll get back to you all.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:45 pm

    Hey, don't get me wrong.  I'm totally okay with a 6-die attack from a Granite Guardian hurled across the board by a Stone Giant champion.  That would be awesome!

    You should play-test him.  My first couple of games with him were Okay, but I think he needs a little extra punch.

    The GG's are one of my favorite units, so I'd love for them to have a Hero/Commander.
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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:22 pm

    just bumping this so it don't lag too far behind.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:52 pm

    OP updated with my latest thoughts based on input - thanks for the great ideas!

    I think he will be pretty formidable (and strategic), but we can always change his points as play-testing deems necessary.

    Let me know what you think . . . suggestions for improvement are always welcome.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:10 pm

    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 5

    Defense: 5

    It is subtle, but I think a key factor is the Range 5, Attack 5 being pretty strong - and at 140 points is probably necessary.  With height, that's a big attack of 6 (which makes sense if you can pick up and throw a boulder the size of some figures).

    The boulder throw is in place of his normal attack - but when I play-tested with a GG being thrown into engagement it was pretty awesome (especially for helping the GG's gain height).

    Looking good, Nomad!!!
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:49 pm

    Really liking this guy. On

    BOULDER THROW
    After moving and instead of attacking, choose 1 adjacent small or medium figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 clear sight spaces of Torver. Boulder Throw may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If the chosen figure is Dauntless, add 1 die to the normal attack.

    do you think it would make sense to count the move spaces(or the height diff of attacked figure). Example- even ground and down hill would be 5 spaces with the range. Up 1 space would be 4 range. 2 spaces higher would be only 3 range. Working this out wording wise could be a challenge, but I think it makes sense thematically.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:59 pm


    Question: Is Torver a double-space figure (peanut base)? That could have an affect on his ability to move 1 space like a GG.

    I'm guessing Yes because of the extra space the rocks take up on his miniature but he might fit on a large single base as well. I haven't had any luck prying mine off his pathfinder base : (
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:21 pm

    Kai wrote:Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 5
    Defense: 5

    It is subtle, but I think a key factor is the Range 5, Attack 5 being pretty strong - and at 140 points is probably necessary.  With height, that's a big attack of 6 (which makes sense if you can pick up and throw a boulder the size of some figures).

    The boulder throw is in place of his normal attack - but when I play-tested with a GG being thrown into engagement it was pretty awesome (especially for helping the GG's gain height).

    Looking good, Nomad!!!

    Thanks.

    Yep - a pretty awesome attack. He can either attack with height and 6 dice or throw a GG and do the same thing. I think this is where his value is. Are you thinking his points are too low? I am happy to adjust the points to whatever fits after play-testing. I've also heard he needed something else to warrant the points - more staying power, perhaps? I am happy to adjust the powers after some play-testing, which I haven't done yet.

    I am still in the brainstorming stage with this fellow.

    Derek wrote:do you think it would make sense to count the move spaces(or the height diff of attacked figure). Example- even ground and down hill would be 5 spaces with the range. Up 1 space would be 4 range. 2 spaces higher would be only 3 range. Working this out wording wise could be a challenge, but I think it makes sense thematically.

    Way too complicated in my opinion. Good thoughts though.

    Kai wrote:Question: Is Torver a double-space figure (peanut base)? That could have an affect on his ability to move 1 space like a GG.

    I'm guessing Yes because of the extra space the rocks take up on his miniature but he might fit on a large single base as well. I haven't had any luck prying mine off his pathfinder base : (

    I don't see how he can be put on a single base - too much overhang. So, yes - he would be a double spacer which would mean a move of 1 would be meaningless. Excellent observation - that is what I need, excellent input from everyone to make this a better product.

    Hmm, maybe a move of two on that power for Torver?

    Oh, Kai . . . don't pry! It will just bend the figure. I can help you do some slicing and gluing.
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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:35 pm

    What about moving 2 spaces ignoring elevation(up to 3-4 levels-depending on the height of his legs)- should accomplish almost the same thing (unless there isn't a 2 same level space adjacent to where he is at). Good catch Kai.

    Derek wrote:
    do you think it would make sense to count the move spaces(or the height diff of attacked figure). Example- even ground and down hill would be 5 spaces with the range. Up 1 space would be 4 range. 2 spaces higher would be only 3 range. Working this out wording wise could be a challenge, but I think it makes sense thematically.



    Damon wrote:
    Way too complicated in my opinion. Good thoughts though.

    That's what I figured but I thought I would throw it out to see if we wanted to try for some wording. I still got to try and round me up one of these guys.

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