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    W1 Torver - RELEASED

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:54 pm

    He is a tall drink-of-water. His legs are long - almost three hexes high . . . lacks some beef though.

    I'm happy to change it to a move of two. I don't think it would change things too much, perhaps just in the points. A move of 1 would be meaningless for a double spaced character. He will be a slightly-built double spacer, but he cannot fit on one base.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:13 pm

    Updated OP.

    I'm ready to move to play testing with Torver.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:39 pm

    I wish we would have got some PTing in last weekend with this guy. I am looking forward to giving this guy a whirl and will next chance I get.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:46 am

    We got a couple of play tests in this evening . . . it might be back to the drawing board! But, these battles were against the new Wolf Pack from c3v and they rocked.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:48 am

    wolf pack rocked? Looking forward to the playtests.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:02 am


    I did a few playtests on my own, and then after 2 tonight - I think that TORVER needs a boost (though probably not in point cost).

    I think the goal is to enhance the Granite Guardians, who at 100-points per squad are Power Ranked at a B- If we were thinking of the GG's at an A ranking, they probably be 80-90 points. Maybe we can bring Torver down 20-30 points to help compensate. It would be nice to get him down to 100 points, so he could have the option to support 4 squads at an even 500 point Army.

    Maybe something like:


    Unit Name: Torver

    General: Aquilla
    Species: Giant
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Size: Large 8
    Points: 100


    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 4
    Range: 4
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 5

    DAUNTLESS LEADERSHIP
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, before taking a turn with Torver, you may take a turn with one squad of Dauntless Elementars you control. After taking a turn with Torver, you may then move up to 2 spaces. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher.

    BOULDER THROW
    Instead of attacking normally, choose 1 adjacent small or medium figure you control to Boulder Throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 clear sight spaces of Torver. Boulder Throw may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If the chosen figure is Dauntless, add 1 die to the normal attack.


    (dropping Rock Tough to lower points)

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:49 pm

    Great input . . . I'm thinking along the same lines. What do you think about this?

    Unit Name: Torver
    General: Aquilla

    Species: Giant
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Size: Large 8
    Points: 100

    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 5 (I added one move to your proposal)
    Range: 4
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 5

    DAUNTLESS LEADERSHIP
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, before taking a turn with Torver, you may take a turn with 1 Dauntless Squad or 1 Dauntless Hero you control. (I dropped the extra move at the end to add the Dauntless Hero).

    BOULDER THROW
    Instead of attacking normally, choose 1 adjacent small or medium figure you control to Boulder Throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. Boulder Throw may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If the chosen figure is Dauntless, add 1 die to the normal attack. (I dropped his throw by 1 to match his range).

    I love me some Greater Ice! Plus we can create other Dauntless heroes/squads in the future if we wanted.

    Potential Army builds:
    Torver, Granites x4 = 500 points
    Torver, Greater Ice, Granites x2, Beakface Sneaks x2 = 500 points
    Torver, Greater Ice, Granites x2, Raelin = 510 points
    Torver, Greater Ice x3, Isamu = 500 points

    Let me know your thoughts.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:15 pm


    BOULDER THROW
    Instead of attacking normally, choose 1 adjacent small or medium figure you control to Boulder Throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. Boulder Throw may only be used if the chosen figure is unengaged. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged enemy figure with a normal attack. If the chosen figure is Dauntless, add 1 die to the normal attack. (I dropped his throw by 1 to match his range).

    I got some concerns here. Do the thrown characters take falling Damage? If they fly? Thematically I thought it made sense to throw a Granite figure. Now all characters are treated equal when thrown?

    Does it make sense to throw a Minion, Isamu, or any/all of the medium/small characters? I am not so sure.

    DAUNTLESS LEADERSHIP
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, before taking a turn with Torver, you may take a turn with 1 Dauntless Squad or 1 Dauntless Hero you control. (I dropped the extra move at the end to add the Dauntless Hero).

    I like this, although I don't see why not to allow him to move as well. A version of the granite guardians for their hero I really like.

    Rock tough

    I still think it was a very thematic power. Look at Augamo. But I won't argue to hard here if you guys don't think a rock should have resistance to special attacks or such.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:29 am

    It was the intent that Torver could throw anyone. This didn't change, so yes, all small/medium figures were treated equally in terms of being able to be thrown. I didn't think about flyers and falling damage . . . I'll have to see how C3G dealt with Collossus. The only added benefit was that dauntless figures get to add one to their attack.

    We can change the throw to be only Granite Guardians or dauntless small/medium figures. I'm open.

    The reason to remove Torvers extra move is that they are now bonding. It is not one turn for Torver OR one turn for Guardians. Since they both get to take a turn it seemed too much to give Torver an extra move and then take a turn.

    Yes, I really liked Rock Tough. But, it order to try to get him down in points something had to give. I liked the original idea of extra defensive mojo for being on a rock space or next to an outcrop/glacier but we seemed to go in a different direction. We can keep this power or beef it up, but his points will increase making it less likely he would be included in an army build in my opinion.

    Still in the initial design stage (my attempts at play testing were informative). Keep the ideas coming.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:17 am

    Is the intent to keep the "if dauntless thrown they get +1 attack. I think they should. The characters thrown are not super heroes so throwing up 20 spaces or down 20 spaces needs to be thought about. And I still like Torver being able to move 2 spaces or such as it ties in with his long legs and the Granite Guardians card, I don't think it is too much as the GG get to do the same. My 2 cents says to keep him with rock tough and make him better than 100pts of Granite Guardians.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:23 pm

    Thanks for the input and the suggestions. I've been thinking about what to do with Torver for a couple of days.

    How about this? I dropped a few things, added a few things, and limited a few things. I really don't want to exceed 120 points. He has 4 powers, which I don't think has been on a card before, but 3 of the powers are short.

    Comments please.

    Unit Name: Torver

    General: Aquilla
    Species: Giant
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Size: Huge 8 (A giant has to be huge)
    Points: 120 (A nice compromise and an amount I'd rather not exceed)

    Stats (I dropped move, range, and attack by 1 each from OP)
    Life: 5
    Move: 4
    Range: 4
    Attack: 4
    Defense: 5

    DAUNTLESS DECREE (Now bonds with GG - they both get to take a turn. Changed name of power.)
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, before taking a turn with Torver, you may take a turn with 1 Dauntless Squad.

    BOULDER THROW (dropped throw by 1 to match range, limited it to Dauntless, set parameters, removed +1 attack)
    After moving and instead of attacking, choose 1 adjacent unengaged small or medium Dauntless figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver that is no more than 4 spaces above Torver's height or 4 spaces below Torver's base. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged figure with a normal attack.

    GAIN HIGH GROUND 2 (separated this power from first power)
    After taking a turn with Torver, you may move him up to 2 spaces. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher.

    ROCK TOUGH (added this back in)
    When rolling defense dice against a special attack, Torver always adds one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:57 pm


    Hey Nomad,
    Do you have this Stone Giant as well? This is just title "Stone Giant" where Torver's figure is "Stone Giant Champion." I have one of each.

    Not to go in a totally different direction or anything ~ but I liked the version of TORVER bonding with the Greater Ice Elemental (Dauntless Hero). Maybe we could also make this Stone Giant into an Uncommon Hero (Dauntless) so there could be a "Hero/Giant" army that Torver leads and a "Squad/Granite Guardian" army.

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:02 pm

    Points: 120 (A nice compromise and an amount I'd rather not exceed)

    Four powers for 120 points seems like a bargain, though his stats are broken.


    DAUNTLESS DECREE (Now bonds with GG - they both get to take a turn. Changed name of power.)
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, before taking a turn with Torver, you may take a turn with 1 Dauntless Squad.


    See comment above about maybe keeping Dauntless Heroes.


    BOULDER THROW (dropped throw by 1 to match range, limited it to Dauntless, set parameters, removed +1 attack)

    Maybe this 'super-power' is too much for Classic Heroscape.  I loved the idea though, but maybe going back to a Boulder Throw special attack is better.  



    GAIN HIGH GROUND 2
    ROCK TOUGH


    I think you need to decide between one of these two powers.  If you do decide to add a Stone Giant (Uncommon Hero), we could give that giant "Shared Strength" or something - so it boosts the defense of other Dauntless Heroes that it is adjacent to (which would be nice for the Greater Ice Elemental). Or we give the regular Stone Giants "Boulder Throw" and give Torver something else.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:12 pm

    I really like the limits on height with boulder throw. I could see making it 4 spaces above and 6 spaces below, as it makes thematic sense.

    Seeing how the gain height power got seperated from the first power I do think 4 powers is too much. Maybe Kai's picture of the other stone giant could be an 80 point character to round out to an even 500 pt army. the dauntless power could be hero or squad then.

    Damon wrote:The reason to remove Torvers extra move is that they are now bonding. It is not one turn for Torver OR one turn for Guardians. Since they both get to take a turn it seemed too much to give Torver an extra move and then take a turn.

    I agree with this so if one power did drop I think this would be the best option.

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 pm

    Great ideas!

    Keep them coming . . .
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:16 am

    I'm glad someone liked the option of bonding with a Dauntless hero! Yes - future heroes would be in store.

    OK, here is the latest rendition . . . the points will work itself out in play-testing. We are back down to three powers.

    Unit Name: Torver

    General: Aquilla
    Species: Giant
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Size: Large 8
    Points: 200

    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 5
    Defense: 5

    DAUNTLESS DECREE
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, before taking a turn with Torver, you may take a turn with 1 Dauntless Squad or 1 Dauntless Hero. After taking a turn with Torver, you may move him up to 2 spaces. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher.

    BOULDER THROW
    After moving and instead of attacking, choose 1 adjacent unengaged small or medium figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 clear sight spaces of Torver that is no more than 4 spaces above Torver's height or 6 spaces below Torver's base. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged figure with a normal attack. If the thrown figure is Dauntless, add 1 die to the attack.

    ROCK TOUGH
    When rolling defense dice against a special attack, Torver always adds one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.

    Personally, I would like to keep his points at 120 or so. But we need to drop some stuff to make that work. I have heard offers of some things we are OK with to drop and some that we would rather keep. I'll give a different version later trying to summarize what I've heard that we might be willing to drop/change. But the stats above could work as well.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:26 am


    I know that is a LOT of powers .. but 200 points?

    I guess it is 4 attacks per OM ... three from GG's and one from Torver. But you can get 6 attacks with Nilfheim and a squad of Greenscales. Granted the Greenscales are faster but not as durable, and Nilfheim only gets 3 Ice Shards if he is out of engagement. And Kato allows 8 move and 8 attacks with Ashigaru at 200 points.

    And the Granites are Sooooo Slow .. they have trouble getting into the fight sometimes.

    I'd rather loose the Rock Tough and drop him to 160 - 170 range.

    But yeah, he has to be play-tested.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:40 pm

    I really want to keep this guy near 120 points so that Torver, GGx3, and another dauntless hero can make an army. With that, some reductions need to be made. If not, we can bump his stats to make him close to a 200 point figure.

    So, let's consider this:

    Unit Name: Torver

    General: Aquilla
    Planet: Feylund (same as the dwarves and elves and Jotun)

    Species: Giant
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Size: Huge 8 (A giant has to be huge. Yes, he gives up jungle tree bonus - consider this a reduction in value)
    Points: 120

    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 4 (we drop this to 4, or drop the extra move at the end of Dauntless Decree)
    Range: 4 (reduction)
    Attack: 4 (reduction)
    Defense: 5

    DAUNTLESS DECREE
    After revealing an order marker on Torver, before taking a turn with Torver, you may take a turn with 1 Dauntless Squad or 1 Dauntless Hero. After taking a turn with Torver, you may move him up to 2 spaces. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher.

    I'm good with letting them bond with GGs and a dauntless hero, but we could decide to go back to the original, which would drop the points big time. The extra move at the end is fitting, but I would reduce his normal move to 4. Another option would be to allow him to move, but instead of attacking, he can take a turn with the GGs or hero.

    BOULDER THROW
    After moving and instead of attacking, choose 1 adjacent unengaged small or medium Dauntless figure you control to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver that is no more than 4 spaces above Torver's height or 4 spaces below Torver's base. The chosen figure may immediately attack an engaged figure with a normal attack. If the thrown figure is Dauntless, add 1 die to the attack.

    I really want to keep this power - it helps in moving the very slow GGs and fits the sculpt. By dropping it to 4 below his base, he can grab a GG and toss him down, without worrying too much about falling damage. Or, we could keep it at 6 and add a line that figures thrown will not receive falling damage. Either way is good with me. I got rid of throwing any figure and the +1 attack if a GG is thrown in the attempt to reduce points.

    ROCK TOUGH
    When rolling defense dice against a special attack, Torver always adds one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.



    I love this power, but if the goal is to keep him around 120 points, then maybe it should go. I'm still open, but the points for Torver would creep back up.



    Thoughts?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:33 pm

    If you throw a spider or a figure at 3 height or below there still might be some questions as to falling damage (only applies if open to all figures). Granites are 5 height so may be you could 3 up 5 down and not worry about it- unless a dauntless figure in the future comes out who is shorter. I really don't know what to do here just throwing out some concerns, valid or not.

    The Granite Guardians are from Valhalla so I think that fits.

    Looks good.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:03 am



    Yeah, I think you either have Torver at 200 points and make some big giant buddies to go along with him ... or I could see making an 80-point Uncommon version of this Stone Giant to go along with Torver and some GG's.

    I'm cool either way.  I'd like to keep the Range 5 though, since he is a "champion" : )


    Did we need another double-spacer for our "Large Expansion" set?
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:10 am

    I think we have three possible directions to pursue:

    1) Points pushing 200, keep bonding, keep suggested powers (see my proposal from few posts ago)
    2) Limit points to around 120, keep bonding, drop a few powers (see my last proposal)
    3) Keep suggested powers, provide some synergy to dauntless but not bonding, keep suggested powers.

    I am finding it difficult to keep all the powers this sculpt warrants and do the bonding with GGs - his points go up and push him out of wanting to play with GGs, who are already expensive. Trying to make a worthy giant who bonds and limiting the powers is not fitting the sculpt and the great ideas we have for him.

    Therefore, we could get rid of the bonding and make this character fit his sculpt, which would mean keeping all those cool powers. We could keep his throw. Maybe we could make a figure later on that does the bonding . . . some weak-stated fairly inexpensive Runelord general of Dauntless figures (GGs, Torver, Greater Ice, future stone giants, etc.)

    What do you think?


    Last edited by Nomad on Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed a typo)
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:36 am

    Bump.

    Any thoughts on which we want to pursue based on my previous post?

    Also, C3V will be coming out with this figure that seems to work with Bold and Dauntless figures seeing that the Granite Guardians and Master of the Hunt are both in the picture . . .

    http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=1853344&postcount=60

    More to consider. I'm leaning toward option #3 - make this figure fit his sculpt with the beefed up powers we have suggested, keep some synergy with Dauntless, but drop the bonding with GGs.

    Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:54 am

    I wouldn't mind keeping Torver as a powerhouse without the bonding- all of his powers are very thematic to the figurine and the nature of the character.

    Down the road a character could be made that allowed for bonding with the granites, or/and Torver, or such.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:36 am


    Damned C3V .. stealing your cool Giant idea!!!!

    Yeah, if you want to move away from Granite Guardian bonding, that's cool with me. I'd like to think we can have our own option for the GG's but I get it.


    I think Torver makes a pretty wicked Hero .. and I liked the idea of him Bonding with the Dauntless Heroes - like another Stone Giant or the Greater Ice Elemental. I bought another Stone Giant - so I have two of the basic stone giant and 1 of the 'champion' (Torver). You could certainly do something with Uncommon Stone Giants (they are about $5 each though).
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Torver - RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:01 am

    OK, so here is my latest effort with Torver that I started back in January Very Happy

    I don't even know if this will all fit on a card, but it is a place to start discussion before we finally move to play testing. I wanted his points less than 150, but when I compare it to others it seems about right. For the text of the powers, refer to Kato and Jotun.

    Unit Name: Torver
    Planet: Feylund

    General: Aquilla
    Species: Giant
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Champion
    Personality: Dauntless
    Size: Huge 8
    Points: 150

    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 5
    Attack: 5
    Defense: 5

    DAUNTLESS GAIN HIGH GROUND
    After taking a turn with Torver, you may do one of the following with figures you control:

    * Move Torver up to 2 spaces, or
    * Move 1 Dauntless Hero up to 2 spaces, or
    * Move 3 small or medium Dauntless Squad figures up to 1 space each.

    These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher for each figure and must be in clear line of sight of Torver before moving.

    BOULDER THROW
    After moving and instead of attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll a 14 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. If the thrown figure is a Dauntless figure you control, do not roll for throwing damage and you may immediately use a normal attack with that figure.

    ROCK TOUGH
    When rolling defense dice against a special attack, Torver always adds one automatic shield to whatever is rolled.

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