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    W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:55 am

    Here is the basic side of the Bloodhunter Harpies. I'm guessing on the planet and numbers (although based on other two-figure squads). Let me know if we need to make changes.

    Thank you!

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:45 am

    Nomad wrote:
    I'm still not convinced this is the best and final rendition possible for this is figure, but I will vote "yes" for final approval with the following disclaimer:

    I think making them common heroes and allowing Uvall to bond with any two Harpy common heroes would be better, but I am more than happy to include these guys as is. I haven't really heard the justification for keeping them as a squad and not allowing Uvall to bond with any two Harpies common heroes. Just a tweak or two in the wording is all that would be necessary.

    I just don't feel that my suggestions were addressed or acknowledged since my first e-mail regarding your proposal long ago.

    I don't understand why you went away from your initial design.


    You are welcome to take a crack at writing a Common Hero bonding option for them, so that they can stand alone as Common Heroes. I'm guessing you'll go with Wyrmling style bonding. Then Uvall can say that the can take a turn with 2 Common Harpy heroes.

    Here's a link to the Blue Wyrmling for reference:
    http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/5/7/7/blue_wyrmling_card_original.jpg

    If they are common heroes, please make their points 30 each.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:13 am

    You are welcome to take a crack at writing a Common Hero bonding option for them, so that they can stand alone as Common Heroes. I'm guessing you'll go with Wyrmling style bonding. Then Uvall can say that the can take a turn with 2 Common Harpy heroes.

    Here's a link to the Blue Wyrmling for reference:
    http://www.heroscapers.com/community/gallery/files/2/5/7/7/blue_wyrmling_card_original.jpg

    If they are common heroes, please make their points 30 each.

    I'm not trying to steal any thunder for the awesome design. I did exactly what you are asking for way back when. If it is not feasible, I'm good with it. I think that multiple ideas on an initial design will lead to outcome that will be the best. If you have already considered the option, I must of missed why it was dismissed.

    Here is an e-mail I sent back on March 30 that kind of eludes to what I was thinking at the time . . . I'm OK with it being totally out of line with what you want and will drop the suggestion, but I didn't get any feedback either way. I've continued to bring up the same suggestions . . . I don't really care if my thoughts end up working for the figure, but I do care if they are considered. I just haven't heard either way. In my 8-9 games of play-testing, I've always wondered that they might be better as common heroes. This was sent to you, Jason and Derek.

    OK, here are some ideas and rewording that I came up with. I’m suggesting that we make the Harpies common heroes and change the species to Harpy. Future Harpies of a different kind can be created. I’ve added Harpy Bonding to be like the Wyrmlings. I have reworded Blood Frenzy 14 for clarity and to address some of the concerns I had.



    Kai, I really like the customs you have created! I’m just adding my two cents. Let me know what you think.



    Unit Name: Uvall, Demon of Wrath (according to myth – Uvall appears in the form of an Arabian camel, just an FYI)



    General: Valkrill

    Species: Demon

    Type: Unique Hero

    Class: Lord

    Personality: Relentless

    Size: Large 6  (single large base)

    Points: 120                                                                        

    Planet: Feylund



    Stats

    Life:           5

    Move:        5                                                                              

    Range:       1                                                                                              

    Attack:       5                                                                                              

    Defense:    3                                                                                              



    Special Powers



    DEMONIC CONVERSION 13

    After taking a turn with Uvall, if he destroyed a figure, you may roll the twenty-side die.  If the destroyed figure was a Unique Hero, you may add 5 to your roll.  If you roll a 13 or higher, you may place one of your previously destroyed Harpy figures or Demon squad figures adjacent to Uvall.  



    COMMAND THE HARPIES

    After revealing an order marker and taking a turn with Uvall, you may take a turn with two small or medium Harpies you control.



    FLYING

    When counting spaces for Uvall’s movement, ignore elevations.  Uvall may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins.  If Uvall is engaged when it starts to fly, it will take any leaving engagement attacks.



    Unit Name:  Bloodhunter Harpy



    General: Valkrill

    Species: Harpy                                                      

    Type: Common Hero

    Class: Hunter    

    Personality: Terrifying

    Size: Medium 5

    Points: 30

    Planet: Feylund



    Stats

    Life:              1

    Move:           6                                                                              

    Range:          1                                                                                              

    Attack:          3                                                                                              

    Defense:       4                                                                                              



    Special Powers



    BLOOD FRENZY 14

    If you destroy an opponent’s figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. The Bloodhunter Harpy may move up to 6 spaces.  After moving with Blood Frenzy 14, the Bloodhunter Harpy may choose one engaged figure. Roll the twenty-sided die.  If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.  A Bloodhunter Harpy may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.



    HARPY BONDING

    After revealing an Order Marker on a Harpy Army Card, before taking that Harpy’s turn, you may take a turn with one other Harpy you control.



    FLYING

    When counting spaces for a Bloodhunter Harpy’s movement, ignore elevations.  A Bloodhunter Harpy may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins.  If a Bloodhunter Harpy is engaged when it starts to fly, it will take any leaving engagement attacks.

    I never did hear what you think about my suggestions . . . After all of the iterations and play testing it will take me a bit of time to consider wording that would be most appropriate for a current suggestion. This is just what I was thinking back in March . . . just didn't hear any feedback (I'm not saying what I come up with will be any better than the current).

    If you would rather keep them as a squad of two, that is fine with me. Just let me know that you've considered the common hero option and think it would be less advantageous and then we can discuss. I spend a lot of time considering my suggestions . . . it is nice to know that time spent offering feedback is considered in a design.

    Thank you

    PS: I thought your initial idea for these guys as common heroes were spot on - I'm not sure why it was changed. I feel like the units we put forth is very much a collaborative effort.

    PPS: You are still my BFF regardless of some plastic figurines and numbers. Very Happy

    EDIT - this may seem a little over the top. Sorry!


    Last edited by Nomad on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added the EDIT line at the end)
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    Nomad

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    Harpy Card redo

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:48 pm



    I changed the text on the flying power to be consistent with all other flyers from Heroscape.

    Although I think Bloodfrenzy 14 could use some better wording. Will address in the next few days, has to do with after the , "choose one of the engaged figures". Maybe a more heroscape worded line would be after moving with that bloodhunter harpy you may choose an engaged figure and roll the ...

    A final editing stage would have been good to catch any last wording changes or such.

    I am happy with the way the Bloodfrenzy 14 power reads now, but if Kai wants to change it that can be done.

    Yes - we do need a final editing stage before I start making cards. It would save me some time by not having to go back and fix things on a card. But, I wanted to get these cards rolling when I had some spare time.
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    Nomad

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    Uvall card

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:59 pm



    Let me know if you see any errors.
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    Nomad

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    Uvall's Basic Side

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:33 pm



    Let me know if this works for you.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:42 pm

    BLOOD FRENZY 14

    If you destroy an opponent’s figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. The chosen Bloodhunter Harpy may move up to 6 spaces.  After moving with Blood Frenzy 14, if that Bloodhunter Harpy  ends its movement engaged, choose one of the engaged figures and roll the 20-sided die.  If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.  A Bloodhunter Harpy may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    to


    If you destroy an opponent’s figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. The chosen Bloodhunter Harpy may move up to 6 spaces.  After moving with Blood Frenzy 14 that Bloodhunter Harpy may choose an adjacent figure and roll the 20-sided die.  If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.  A Bloodhunter Harpy may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    although adjacent could be swapped with engaged, but as an optional power I think adjacent is better.

    Uvall's card looks good. Still think a "squad of harpies" would be better than " squad of Bloodhunter Harpies."
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:59 pm

    I am fine making the Bloodhunter Harpies a Common HERO.

    You are welcome to make the necessary changes to Uvall and the Harpy cards that you are suggesting.

    Thank you very much for putting the cards together. They look AWESOME!
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:49 pm

    Kai wrote:I am fine making the Bloodhunter Harpies a Common HERO.

    You are welcome to make the necessary changes to Uvall and the Harpy cards that you are suggesting.

    Thank you very much for putting the cards together. They look AWESOME!

    Ultimately, do you prefer them as common hero's or common squad?  If they are hero's and not a squad we will have to back up to playtesting (I think).  If they stay a squad then they are complete- unless you like the proposed wording changes of


    If you destroy an opponent’s figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. The chosen Bloodhunter Harpy may move up to 6 spaces.  After moving with Blood Frenzy 14 that Bloodhunter Harpy may choose an adjacent figure and roll the 20-sided die.  If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.  A Bloodhunter Harpy may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    which changes nothing but wording.

    For Uvall you have stated to keep his bonding option only with the Bloodhunter Harpies.  Having him bond with any squad of Harpies (just in case we find a figurine(s) and decide to proceed with a new design) is the other option.  Which way to want it in the end?

    We all need to make sure that we are on the same page before these great designs are finalized and I am a little confused right now. Sorry if I am missing something here.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:04 pm

    I am the one who is causing the confusion by blustering on. I think they are a great design as is.

    If Kai wants to pursue the change, I'm good with it. If not, I'm good with they way they are.

    Kai - what would you PREFER: keep them as is or proceed with some changes? It is your design and I don't want to change something that you don't really want changed.

    Derek wrote:For Uvall you have stated to keep his bonding option only with the Bloodhunter Harpies. Having him bond with any squad of Harpies (just in case we find a figurine(s) and decide to proceed with a new design) is the other option. Which way to want it in the end?

    We would need to change the Harpies race to Harpy and change the Uvall's power to exchange both Demons and Harpies, but that wouldn't be too difficult.

    Regarding the wording change on Bloodfrenzy, I was fine with the original text. I'm not sure it needs to be changed.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:11 pm

    Change Uvall to bonding with Harpy Squad (not just Bloodhunter Harpies)

    Keep Harpies as 2 person squad.

    Please keep Bloodfrenzy wording as engaged and not adjacent (I don't want the Harpy to have the option to "engagement strike" a friendly figure).
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:53 pm

    Bloodfrenzy 14

    If you destroy an opponent’s figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. The chosen Bloodhunter Harpy may move up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy 14 that Bloodhunter Harpy may choose a figure it is engaged with and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. A Bloodhunter Harpy may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    I still like this wording better. A little shorter and not so redundant on the engaged part. But it is good with me the other way as well.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:16 pm

    Kai wrote:BLOOD FRENZY
    If you destroy an opponent's figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. Move the chosen Bloodhunter Harpy up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy, if that Bloodhunter Harpy ends its movement engaged, choose one of the engaged figures and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. Bloodhunter Harpies may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    Derek wrote:Bloodfrenzy 14

    If you destroy an opponent’s figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. The chosen Bloodhunter Harpy may move up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy 14 that Bloodhunter Harpy may choose a figure it is engaged with and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. A Bloodhunter Harpy may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    I had to put the original and Derek's suggestion side-by-side to compare. I do like Derek's wording - just a little cleaner. An edit or two for a cleaner copy and paste into the card:

    BLOODFRENZY 14
    If you destroy an opponent’s figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. The chosen Bloodhunter Harpy may move up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy 14, that Bloodhunter Harpy may choose a figure it is engaged with and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. A Bloodhunter Harpy may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    Kai, will this wording change work?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:16 am


    Yes. Approved.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:30 am

    Changes for Uvall?

    POINTS: 110  (This is because he would have potential to bond with more squads down the line. This is not a huge deal to me either way)

    DEMONIC EXCHANGE 13
    After attacking with Uvall, if it destroyed a figure, you may roll the 20-sided die. If the destroyed figure was a Unique Hero, add 5 to your roll. If you roll a 13 or higher, place one of your previously destroyed Demon or Harpy squad figures adjacent to Uvall. (changed from he to it to be consistent with the terms used in the flying power, but if "he" is preferred, then I can change the flying power)

    COMMAND THE HARPIES
    After revealing an order marker and taking a turn with Uvall, you may take a turn with one squad of Bloodhunter Harpies you control.

    Changes for Bloodhunter Harpies?

    SPECIES: Harpy

    Plus the Bloodfrenzy previously agreed to.

    I don't think we need to do any further play-testing.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:49 am

    I am good with all the changes. Are there any cards that use it instead of he? If not I would prefer he.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:05 pm

    "it" is used by Wyrmlings, elementals, Fenn Hydra, Shades, Rechets, etc. Basically creatures were the sex is ambiguous.

    Uvall seems like a "he" to me and the Harpies seem like "its."

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:41 pm


    Can we keep Uvall at 100 points? I think the feedback has been that he sort of has a glass-jaw.

    If we create a new Harpy squad we can address his point cost then, but I don't see that happening for 6-12 months.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:38 pm

    In my playtests I thought 110 was appropriate. I am fine with 100 or 105 or 110. I don't want to change the points or the powers down the road, whatever he is finalized at I would prefer he stayed that way (unless an official or C3V/SOV release breaks him). Just my two cents.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:27 pm

    I think that 100 points, while possibly more powerful, will allow for more potential army builds.  That extra 10 points pushes the Valkrill armies just over the line for the average 500-point game.

    Here's a quick look at some 500-point Army Builds off the top of my head.


    ALL DEMON ARMY
    Uvall = 100
    Bloodhunter Harpies x3 = 65 x 3 = 195
    Chela = 200
    = 495 points


    DEMON KNIGHTS
    Uvall = 100
    Bloodhunter Harpies x2 = 65 x 2 = 130
    Deathknights x3 = 60 x 3 = 180
    Sir Hawthorne = 90
    = 500 points


    DEMON SKULLS
    Uvall = 100
    Bloodhunter Harpies x2 = 65 x 2 = 130
    Deathknights x2 = 60 x 2 = 120
    Skull Demon x2 = 65 x 2 = 130
    Marcu = 20
    = 500 points


    DEMON LORDS
    Uvall = 100
    Morgoloth = 140
    Mezzodemons = 65 x4 = 260  (or a mix/match of Bloodhunter Harpies)
    = 500 points


    DEMON BONES
    Uvall = 100
    Bloodhunter Harpies x3 = 65 x 3 = 195
    Skeletons of Annellintia x2 = 105 x 2 = 210
    = 505 points
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:04 pm

    I am good with 100 points. I've play tested him 7-8 times and only once was he worth 110 points. Of course, I am not the most skilled heroscape player in the world, but a few of those battles were against myself!

    We can always price new Harpies about 5 more points than we really think they are worth, kind of like I think we did with the Bloodhunters IMHO.

    Kai, are you good with the other changes I mentioned in my last post?

    Would you prefer Uvall as an "it" or as a "he"?

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:21 pm


    Yes, the "he" to "it" is totally fine. Thanks for catching that detail.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:27 pm

    "It" it is. Morgoloth is referred to as an "it" as well and he is a demon. Maybe we should change Chela to an "it" as well for consistency.

    Nomad wrote:Kai, are you good with the other changes I mentioned in my last post?

    Please let me know what you think of the other changes I mentioned in my last post regarding Uvall and the Harpies. Thanks.



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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:48 pm

    Still some talk of exactly what both units should be finalized at. 65-100, 60-110. I think everything else is good here.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:24 pm

    We've debated the point cost for a bit, so I'm turing to the Classic Power Ranking comparisons:

    Stats are similar to Alastair MacDirk (110 points, Attack: 5, Defense: 3, Life: 5, with a Bonding option).  Alastair gets 4 potential attacks per round as a solo-hero, with over-extend attack.  When bonding with the MacDirks - they have 5 attacks per OM.  He's ranked as an A-

    Kurrok has the ability to rebirth Elementals and turn them into a bonding 3 person squad (3 attacks per order marker).  He's a B+ at 120 points.  I think Kurrok is deadliest when teamed with Fire Elementals who are getting 6+ attacks (3 normal and 3 Searing Intensity .. which can affect all surrounding figures).  Fire Elementals are 4 attack, 4 defense and are 35 points at A-.  I think there rating is assuming 3 move and attacks.

    ..

    Based on these stats, we could bump Uvall to 110 points.  Harpies are priced close to Fire Elementals (about 32.5 points per Harpy), so as a 2-person squad they are balanced at 65 points.

    This should place Uvall at a B+ levels at 110 points.  He's probably an A at 100 points, and A+ at 90 points.  At 105 points, he's likely A-.

    Harpies are probably B+/A-.


    My biggest concern is Army building at 500 points.  This is the average that I play at in casual games and tournaments, so I want our customs be fit that range.

    Uvall ... 110
    Bloodhunter Harpies x3 ... 195
    = 305 point base


    CHELA ... at 200 points, Chela makes the army 5 points over

    If we think that Chela + Harpies + Uvall is a solid army at 500 points, then we should price Uvall at 105 points.  

    I think we should post sample army builds to go with our Heroscapers.com post with these customs.  That shows what we've playtested as well as the ideas & combos we've had.  Posting it up to the Internet will also bring in other folks ideas.


    Personally I'm fine making A-/B+ characters as our customs.  I think that is my goal.  Making characters in the B-/C+ range is not something that I want to spend time & money on : )



    http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=6171

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