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    W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:46 pm

    BODYGUARD DETAIL

    Yep - I see the need to prevent the loop. I think this would make DC3 too strong. I am having trouble trying to figure out how to word that. Not only could DC3 take a turn, but so could a squad of Deathstalkers, and then 2 Enforcers. Or DC3, Zettian Guards, and 2 Enforcers.

    ENFORCEMENT PATROL BONDING

    A turn of 3 total? Two Dumutefs, Enforcers, and/or Chainfighters and then one Alpha Prime . . . so basically, we are talking about a 75 point common squad of 3.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:24 am

    Nomad wrote:BODYGUARD DETAIL
    Yep - I see the need to prevent the loop. I think this would make DC3 too strong. I am having trouble trying to figure out how to word that. Not only could DC3 take a turn, but so could a squad of Deathstalkers, and then 2 Enforcers. Or DC3, Zettian Guards, and 2 Enforcers.

    How about ...

    # 1 BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique small or medium Soulborg Hero or a Unique Soulborg Squad that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.  

    This will eliminate Deathwalker 8K and 9K as well as the Deathcommander but allow for Warden 816, Mistress Isadora, and the Zettian Guards.

    -or-

    # 2 BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Deathwalker or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.  

    This eliminates DC3 since he is a Deathcommander not Walker, and allows for DW7K-8K-9K and Isadora and Warden 816.  

    Do you think it would be cool to allow Bonding with the Zettian Guards .. or leave it to Unique Heroes?


    Nomad wrote:
    ENFORCEMENT PATROL BONDING

    A turn of 3 total? Two Dumutefs, Enforcers, and/or Chainfighters and then one Alpha Prime . . . so basically, we are talking about a 75 point common squad of 3.

    Correct, that is about what I was calculating.  If the Horned Skull Brutes are a 3-member 4/4 squad at 75 points - that is about right for balance.


    Last edited by Lord Kai on Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:23 pm

    I like option 2. I think it would be cool to have some more options with the Deathwalkers . . . the Infantry just ain't enough. We can play test it to see if it is too powerful.

    A non-Utgar Warden . . . Eltahale. That would be really cool as well, but I prefer keeping it just to Utgar.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:12 am

    Special Powers
    BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Soulborg that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that Soulborg, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.  

    # 1 BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique small or medium Soulborg Hero or a Unique Soulborg Squad that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.  

    This will eliminate Deathwalker 8K and 9K as well as the Deathcommander but allow for Warden 816, Mistress Isadora, and the Zettian Guards.

    -or-

    # 2 BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Deathwalker or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.  

    Kind of a combo of the 3, how about
    BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Soulborg Hero you control, and taking a turn with that figure, you may move 2 Alpha-Prime Enforcers (guards) you control up to 4/5 spaces.

    add a little defensive sacrifice fitting of a bodyguard figure
    If an Alpha-Prime Enforcer is adjacent to an Unique Soulborg figure you control, after rolling defensive dice for that Unique Soulborg figure, if that figure received enough wounds to be destroyed you may ignore all wounds and instead destroy the Alpha-Prime Enforcer(guard).  
    (this helps the Zettian Guards and all other Soulborgs- maybe want to keep just Utgar? and does the opposite of Infantry's destroyed against a special power.).

    and keep
    ENFORCEMENT PATROL BONDING
    After revealing an order marker on an Alpha-Prime Enforcer, before of taking a turn with one Alpha-Prime Enforcer, you may take a turn with 2 other common Guard heroes you control that follow Utgar.  Guard heroes taking a turn with Enforcement Patrol Bonding add 1 attack dice when attacking an opponent's figure that is engaged with a Soulborg you control.
    or use this power with the hero you are thinking of.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:10 pm

    This would be pretty awesome.  I always thought that the Zettian Infantry should have done something like this (attacks and special powers).

    add a little defensive sacrifice fitting of a bodyguard figure
    If an Alpha-Prime Enforcer is adjacent to an Unique Soulborg figure you control, after rolling defensive dice for that Unique Soulborg figure, if that figure received enough wounds to be destroyed you may ignore all wounds and instead destroy the Alpha-Prime Enforcer(guard).  

    (this helps the Zettian Guards and all other Soulborgs- maybe want to keep just Utgar? and does the opposite of Infantry's destroyed against a special power.).

    I am concerned that if the Alpha-Prime has all three powers, that they would be priced much higher (maybe 35-40 points each).  It would also make Isadora very powerful since she could capture figures and then when your opponent was trying to 'rescue' them - the Enforcers would absorb the damage.

    We could use the "defense sacrifice" above as a power - and drop the "Bonding with Soulborgs" - but leave the Guard/Enforcement Patrol bonding.

    Do the Deathwalkers/Wardens need a bonding power - or is that something to leave with the Zettian Infantry?

    Any preference?
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:26 pm

    I think Derek ditched the idea of taking a full turn with the Enforcers and changed it to move only in his proposal. I would prefer to keep Utgar only. I don't want Q-9 to ditch an Enforcer after it has taken me 50 attacks to finally bring him down.

    Something like this?

    BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a Unique Soulborg Hero you control that follows Utgar, and taking a turn with that figure, you may move 2 Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control up to 5 spaces. If an Alpha-Prime Enforcer is adjacent to a Unique Soulborg figure you control that follows Utgar, after rolling defensive dice for that Unique Soulborg figure, if that figure received enough wounds to be destroyed you may ignore all wounds and instead destroy the Alpha-Prime Enforcer.

    I'm not sure I know which I prefer, but I think they would be about the same in points.

    And keep Enforcement Patrol Bonding.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:09 pm

    Nomad wrote:
    BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a Unique Soulborg Hero you control that follows Utgar, and taking a turn with that figure, you may move 2 Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control up to 5 spaces. If an Alpha-Prime Enforcer is adjacent to a Unique Soulborg figure you control that follows Utgar, after rolling defensive dice for that Unique Soulborg figure, if that figure received enough wounds to be destroyed you may ignore all wounds and instead destroy the Alpha-Prime Enforcer.

    I think this power works great for the Deathwalkers, Warden 816, and the Deathcommander.

    This would make Mistress Isadora even more powerful ... but that is probably a reflection of her being a 4-Life Soulborg instead of 2-Life like the Warden or Deathcommander. If we go with the Enforcer's in this mode, then I think Isadora drops to 2-Life and maybe bumps to 7 Defense.

    It makes the Alpha-Prime Enforcers more flexible (they can support Deathwalkers, Wardens, or Deathcommander) but it likely means Isadora typically walks with Enforcers as guardians (which was the original concept anyway).

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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:15 pm

    We got in a play test with these guys yesterday in a three way battle. Rather than doing a full report, I'm going to just list my thoughts.

    Kai, can you list his current stats/powers in the OP? It would be much easier to find when wanting to play test or reference powers.

    Unit Name: Alpha-Prime Enforcer 4.0 . . . since he works with all Utgar soulborg heroes, not just those from Alpha Prime, and he works with all guard common heroes I'm thinking a name change might be a good idea. Gen 12 Enforcer, Series 742 Enforcer, Model 5 Enforcer . . . I don't know, just throwing out ideas. I can live with Alpha Prime Enforcer as well.

    General: Utgar
    Planet: Isadora (since he has some humanoid characteristics, I think it would be fitting to have him come from the same planet as Warden 816 and Mistress).

    Species: Soulborg
    Type: Common Hero
    Class: Guard
    Personality: Fearless
    Size: Medium 4 I could see bumping his height to 5. He is taller than some other figures that are 5.

    Points: 25

    Stats
    Life: 1
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 5

    Special Powers
    BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Soulborg that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that Soulborg, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    # 2 BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Deathwalker or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    This is where he is at right now and how we play tested him yesterday, I think. Taking a turn with two of them after a hero was pretty powerful for a 25 point figure. I'm thinking either we limit it to 1 enforcer or bump his points slightly to 30. Kai and I discussed the pros and cons of the sacrifice option when an adjacent unique soulborg dies. We agreed that it might make this guy too powerful and that we can develop that power in another figure/unit down the line.


    ENFORCEMENT PATROL BONDING
    After revealing an order marker on an Alpha-Prime Enforcer, before of taking a turn with one Alpha-Prime Enforcer, you may take a turn with 2 other common Guard heroes you control that follow Utgar. Guard heroes taking a turn with Enforcement Patrol Bonding add 1 attack dice when attacking an opponent's figure that is engaged with a Soulborg you control.

    A common squad . . . but you get to take one turn at a time. Kai played this masterfully, clearing paths, chaingrabbing, killing opponents. Coupled with Dumutefs and Chainfighters, often getting the bonus attack when adjacent to a soulborg. I wouldn't change this power at all. I see the Enforcer at 30 points, maybe 35. I see this combo of figures as more powerful than any of the 80 point squads. In our play test yesterday, Jacob and I more or less ganged up on Kai's Enforcers and Mistress because of their superior threat and he because he gained the early lead.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:15 pm

    Unit Name: Alpha-Prime Enforcer 4.5

    General: Utgar
    Planet: Isadora (since he has some humanoid characteristics, I think it would be fitting to have him come from the same planet as Warden 816 and Mistress).

    Species: Soulborg
    Type: Common Hero
    Class: Guard
    Personality: Fearless
    Size: Medium 5

    Points: 30

    Stats
    Life: 1
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 5

    Special Powers
    BODYGUARD DETAIL (#2)
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Deathwalker or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    ENFORCEMENT PATROL BONDING
    After revealing an order marker on an Alpha-Prime Enforcer, before taking a turn with one Alpha-Prime Enforcer, you may take a turn with 2 other common Guard heroes you control that follow Utgar. Guard heroes taking a turn with Enforcement Patrol Bonding add 1 attack dice when attacking an opponent's figure that is engaged with a Soulborg you control.

    --

    Bumping to 30-points.  Fixing Size to Medium 5.

    For Bodyguard Detail - I'd like to keep this as two Enforcers.  It is powerful, but the current Deathwalkers and Warden's are very low rated .. so added a unit that is a little powerful to one that needs some help is one of the concepts of the Enforcers.  And if you are running Zettian Infantry - you are getting 4 attacks (Soulborg hero + 3 squad figures with range).  I think 3 attacks with Enforcers (Hero + 2 Enforcers in melee) is balanced.  And with the Enforcers at 30/each now - that is almost the same as a full squad of Z. Infantry.

    Enforcement Patrol is played like Kurrok's Elementals .. taking a turn with each individual Common Hero.  This helped me to gain the Glyph in our 3-player match as one Chainfighter could move and attack - clear the glyph - and then another Guard hero hop on it.  The Chainfighter and Dumetef are also low Power Ranked units, that it is great to see them out on the battlefield {even though 2 chainfighters + 1 Enforcer is pretty sweet}.

    I'll add these stats to the OP as well, and we can figure out a new name soon.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:48 am

    Pretty good changes here. My only concern is
    BODYGUARD DETAIL (#2)
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Deathwalker or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    What happens if a Deathwalker or Warden is created that makes a bonding loop.

    Would something like this be safer

    BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Deathwalker or Warden you control that follows Utgar, instead of using any bonding on that card, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    my two cents here is that it fills a little forced in the synergy department to have both powers, (as cool as they are), listed on the same card. It makes them fill like both Guards and Commanders. I wouldn't mind dropping one of the 2 powers and using it on a Warden or Commander type figure (probably the body guard detail although it might make more sense the other way).
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:31 pm

    Derek wrote:my two cents here is that it fills a little forced in the synergy department to have both powers, (as cool as they are), listed on the same card. It makes them fill like both Guards and Commanders. I wouldn't mind dropping one of the 2 powers and using it on a Warden or Commander type figure (probably the body guard detail although it might make more sense the other way).

    The Enforcer is a little bit guard and a little bit warden . . . I think that was the intent in the design. He is guard for the Deathwalker/Soulborg after they reveal an OM. He is a warden by commanding the other guards when revealing an OM on him. So, kind of a enforcer of the guards. I can envision a middle man just fine playing out in prisons and the like. Kai, let me know if I have the interpretation wrong.

    Derek wrote:BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Deathwalker or Warden you control that follows Utgar, instead of using any bonding on that card, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    I have no problem with this. There is another card or two that says something similar but I can't think of it off the top of my head.

    Kai, I like all of your proposed changes . . . increasing to 30 points, eliminating extra attack die in second power, and increasing height to 5. It was pretty fun to watch you play them.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:15 am

    Nomad wrote:The Enforcer is a little bit guard and a little bit warden . . . I think that was the intent in the design. He is guard for the Deathwalker/Soulborg after they reveal an OM. He is a warden by commanding the other guards when revealing an OM on him. So, kind of a enforcer of the guards. I can envision a middle man just fine playing out in prisons and the like. Kai, let me know if I have the interpretation wrong.

    Yes, this is the intent .. they are the 'squad leaders' of other guards.  

    I *am* trying to do a lot with this figure .. but that is because I think the Utgar Soulborgs and Guards need some help.  Deathcommander is pretty good, which is why they don't "bond" with him.  I'd mostly like to help Mistress Isadora and The Warden to make a "Capture Squad/Guard" army.

    The Zettian Infantry from C3V added a bonding option and screen for the Soulborgs but I think they are over-priced (I'd put them at 50-points, not 65).  So the first goal of the Enforcer is to be a screen and protector of the Soulborgs.  But also, I started seeing them as Guard Leaders .. and the idea of Enforcers that are both capturing enemy figures and then keeping them imprisoned for Utgar.  

    And it is pretty fun to get Chainfighters and Dumetefs off the shelf and into competitive play.


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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:44 pm

    Army Ideas:

    Base Build 1:

    Mistress Isadora ... 110
    Enforcer (@ 30 pts) x3 ... 200
    Drow Chainfighter x3 ... 275
    Dumetef Guard x3 ... 350
    = 350 point base to add:


    ... lots of options to add 150 points to get to standard 500 point build

    a) Deathwalker 9000 + Isama
    b) Warden 816 + Enforcer x2
    c) Fen Hydra + Enforcer


    Base Build 2:
    Enforcer (@ 30 pts) x3 ... 90
    Drow Chainfighter x3 ... 165
    Dumetef Guard x3 ... 240
    = 240 point base, which is about the same as 3 squads of an 80-point unit

    ... lots of options to add 260 points to get to standard 500 point build

    a) Warden 816 + Enforcer + Deathwalker 9000
    b) Braxas + Chainfighter x2
    c) Cyprien + Sonya + Enforcer + Chainfighter + Isamu
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:26 pm

    BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Guard squad, Deathwalker, or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    I would love for the Zettian Guards to get some love from the Enforcers!
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:23 am

    Nomad wrote:BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Guard squad, Deathwalker, or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    I would love for the Zettian Guards to get some love from the Enforcers!

    Excellent! Go Zettians!
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:14 am

    Lord Kai wrote:
    Nomad wrote:BODYGUARD DETAIL
    After revealing an order marker on a unique Guard squad, Deathwalker, or Warden you control that follows Utgar, after taking a turn with that unit, you may take a turn with two Alpha-Prime Enforcers you control.

    I would love for the Zettian Guards to get some love from the Enforcers!

    Excellent!  Go Zettians!


    Nomad and I snuck in a play-test today with the Enforcer and the Zettian Guards. He stomped me pretty good (though holding the Unique Attack glyph helped just a little).

    Overall, seemed like the Enforcer worked well again. With the Zettian's using their Order Marker - there were 4 activations (2 from the squad and then 2 Enforcers). And again, the Enforcers worked very nicely with the Chainfighter and the Dumetefs.

    And thanks, Nomad, for the rebased Enforcers!!!
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:33 pm

    The Zettian Guards worked really well with the Enforcers! Getting the Unique Attack +1 helped as well. Oh, and the fact I consistently rolled 3 shields on my defenses helped a ton too. Because the dice were skewed in my favor, I'm not sure I can count this as an official play test. If official, then the Enforcers are really good.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:43 am

    Not being there for the playtest who was playing what?

    I have been thinking about these guys for a bit. I like what they are able to do- very cool. (But my 2 cents are that it is an awful lot for a 30 point common hero to do. They are creating a 3 person squad, bonding to a hero (or unique squad) as a 2 person squad. Also, taking a turn with other common hero guards could create a bonding loop if 1 of those guards ends up having some sort of bonding listed on their card.)

    Being a 3 attack 5 defense figure, with a minimum of 3 activations per turn they are no where near the other 30 point figures out there. The closest I see is the White Wyrmling who is 3 attack 4 defense and can only be activated by, or activate 1 other wyrmling, can fly, and has a range 5 attack of 2 twice. The Hoplitron and Command Courier both allow a little order marker management and are 35 points, but still only 2 activations, although the Hoplitron does have better stats at 4 attack 6 defense they can't bond with a ranged hero. The Elementals are similarly priced but require a 120 point investment from Kurrok to get the same sort of activation. I really think these guys are very useful, they look fun, definitely think they are worth more than 30 points, but I also think they are almost a too perfect fit for fixing holes in Heroscape strategy for a 30 point common hero. But I have yet to give them a try as they currently are written. More so than any other character that we have developed this far, I am nervous about these guys. If both of you are comfortable with the whole idea and powers behind a 30 point common hero providing so much I will reluctantly go along for the ride.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:22 am

    You should give them a whirl in a play-test ... they are pretty fun : )

    If we kept them with the same stats, would 40-points be better?


    If we kept them at 30-points .. I could drop the bonding with a Soulborg Hero if that will keep their points down. So far, I think my favorite part of these guys is their Utgar Guard bonding (allowing turns with Dumetefs and Chainfighters).

    Or is the 3-figure bonding too much at 30-points even if it is their only power?

    The Chainfighter is rated at B- and the Dumetef at a C ... with the combination of the Enforcer, I certainly see the Chainfighter coming up to B+ and the Dumetef to a B. This takes "filler" characters and gets them off the shelf. But I don't want the Enforcement Patrol to be TOO powerful.

    The Wyrmlings are powerful because they all have Range, all have a Flying, and all have a Special Attack.

    The "pseudo-squad" costs 30 + 25 + 25 = 80 points. The figures are on average about the same as Horned Skull Brutes (4/4)(Ranked B+) but with a little better move (Move 6 for Chainfighter and Dumetef). These guards don't have a true Special Attack like the Wyrmlings, but they are getting one additional normal attack in (but only in melee).
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:17 am

    You should give them a whirl in a play-test ... they are pretty fun : )
     I am looking forward to it, they do look fun.

    If we kept them with the same stats, would 40-points be better?
    I really don't know here

    I
    f we kept them at 30-points .. I could drop the bonding with a Soulborg Hero if that will keep their points down. So far, I think my favorite part of these guys is their Utgar Guard bonding (allowing turns with Dumetefs and Chainfighters).
     We could go lots of different directions here:  Must end adjacent to the Soulborg hero/  Must be within so many spaces or clear line of site and to attack both Hero and guard must have clear site/  May move 2 or take a turn with 1 guard/   etc for the first part.   I too really like the Dumetef and Chainfighter options- ( 2 figures that aren't great, but also aren't that bad for 25 points).

    Or is the 3-figure bonding too much at 30-points even if it is their only power?
     Maybe just making 1 other (like the Wyrmlings) or move 2/ attack with 1, or any other such thing.

    The Chainfighter is rated at B- and the Dumetef at a C ... with the combination of the Enforcer, I certainly see the Chainfighter coming up to B+ and the Dumetef to a B. This takes "filler" characters and gets them off the shelf. But I don't want the Enforcement Patrol to be TOO powerful.
     I love this and hope it stays.  Kato gives you order marker flexibility as well for some filler units.  He is a 4 attack 4 defense figure but with 5 life.  Is 5 common Alpha Primes and what they bring to the table worth 50 less points than Kato?  

    The Wyrmlings are powerful because they all have Range, all have a Flying, and all have a Special Attack.
    I think the Special Attack gives them range.  Range and flying are powerful and none of the Guard Common Heroes have those powers yet that follow Utgar.  

    The "pseudo-squad" costs 30 + 25 + 25 = 80 points. The figures are on average about the same as Horned Skull Brutes (4/4)(Ranked B+) but with a little better move (Move 6 for Chainfighter and Dumetef). These guards don't have a true Special Attack like the Wyrmlings, but they are getting one additional normal attack in (but only in melee).
     I agree here, but the Chainfighter and Dumetuf bring their own advantages to the table as well.  The Horned Skull Brutes are limited to sacrificing a small goblin for defense and their normal attack.  The "pseudo-squad" can offer devourer bonuses, chain grab, or bond with a DW Hero, et al.  

    I wonder if they should be uncommon (my least favorite designation) and get movement bonding only from the hero's and provide the common guard bonding as currently written (or maybe only 1 instead of 2 if want to keep the points low.)  I really don't know.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:29 pm

    ENFORCEMENT PATROL
    Focusing on the pseudo-squad power ... I don't think that they can be compared to Kato because he can activate 8 figures (4 spears, 4 rifles).

    But in terms of power - perhaps one of the issues is that the Dumetef and Chainfighter - while only 25 points now -- will have their value increased by 5-10 points with the ability to take multiple turns. Since we can't update those Classic Scape cards .. we need to add that point increase (for balance) to the Enforcer. With 1 Life, no Range, and 3/5 stats - the Enforcer is probably 25 points like the other Common Heroes. Add the Enforcement Patrol Bonding and I should bump his points by 5 for each "squad member" = +15.

    So priced at 40 points for the Enforcer ... is really like each Dumetef or Chainfighter costing 30 points instead of their 25. It all comes out in the Total cost of the Army, not the individual common heroes.

    It sort of breaks down when you only want to run Enforcers .. maybe for an all-soulborg theme. Then the Enforcers are a bit over-priced at 40 points. But I think the best combo is Enforcers + Chainfighters in say a Blind-Tournament (when you don't know if you'll have Road to boost the Dumetef or have trouble with double-spaced figures).

    40 points ... as a 3-person squad would be: 40 + 25 + 25 = 90 points (so higher cost than the Warforged but slightly better stats)


    I can drop the Bodyguard Detail altogether if we think that is enough powers.

    Sound better?
    More balanced?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:30 pm

    I am hoping to give them a playtest with Sydney today and I hope all my worries are unfounded as it really is a great design. After a few tests I'll put in a more educated analysis, as I might be off base currently.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:15 pm

    Great discussions!

    In our playtest, Kai went with Deathchasers x3, Ogre Pulverizer x2, Nerak, Marro Warriors. I went with Mistress Isadora, Zettian Guards, Dumetefs x4, Chainfighters x4, Enforcers x4.

    I too feel the Enforcers are very strong . . . and I was thinking playtests would show us that. If I had my pick, I would run with a Deathwalker/Warden and as many Enforcers as I could fit in the points, plus a couple Chainfighters.

    The thing is, all of the figures that they bond with are really low rated figures . . . so giving this guy a little extra than what his points might dictate is OK with me. Now, 30 points may be too low but we will see through the testing.

    Also, at 90 points a three person squad of 5 move, 3 attack, and 5 defense compare to Eradicators (6 m, 4 a, 4 d, and a range of 6) and Marrden Hounds (7 m on average, 3 a, 5 d, and a special plague attack). At 100 points, you are looking at Granites, Microcorp, Snipers, Stalkers . . .

    At this point, I think we keep testing them at 30 and see if they are broken. I have a feeling 35 might be about right.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:58 pm

    NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Alpha-Prime Enforcer

    THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects. PASS.

    FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play? PASS.

    FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying? PASS. With a defense of 5 they are tough to bring down. Plus, the Drow Chainfighter and his Hide in Darkness makes the squad difficult to eliminate.

    USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable? PASS.

    STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game? PASS. I love the new strategic and figures new and old that the Enforcers bring into play.

    BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately? PASS.

    SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak? INCONCLUSIVE. The Chainfighters become super good by being able to take a turn with two of them. The Dumutefs, not as much. They really help the Deathwalkers, Wardens, and Zettian Guards, but they all needed the help.

    POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including released C3V and SoV units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? PASS. After our four games of playtests, we decided to bump their points to 35. It is not that the Enforcers are necessarily A+ figures, but by getting the Chainfighters into the mix often and protecting the Soulborg heroes, the Enforcers become worth the investment.

    DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting? PASS. I loved playing an Enforcer based army.

    MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game? PASS.

    ARMY TEST 1

    Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. [insert pass/fail, point value, and brief summary] PASS – for now. We bumped their points to 35. I would still like to do more play tests against A- and A teams to see if the Enforcer based army can be beat. I’ve played them 6 times in total and haven’t lost yet.

    Units: I played the Enforcer army, Kai played their opponent in each of the four battles.

    Battles 1 and 2 on Relic map (RotV, TJ x2):
    Army 1: Mohicans x4, Saar Whisper Scout x3, Kira Jax, Zetacron = 505 points.
    VS
    Army 2: Enforcers x6, Drow Chainfighter x4, Dumutef Guard, Mistress Isadora, Warden 816 = 505 points

    Battle 3 on Ariadne v3 map (BftU, FotA)
    Army 1: Mezzodemons x3.5, Morgoloth, Skull Demons x2 = 498 points.
    VS
    Army 2: Enforcers x6, Drow Chainfighter x4, Dumutef Guard, Mistress Isadora, Warden 816 = 505 points

    Battle 4 on Mt. Thaelink’s Saddle map (RotV, TT x2):
    Army 1: Cathar Spearmen x4, Sacred Fusiliers x2, Bishop Thaddeus = 500 points.
    VS
    Army 2: Enforcers x5 (bumped points to 35 in this battle), Drow Chainfighter x5, Mistress Isadora, Warden 816 = 500 points

    Battle #1: Damon rolled crazy good in this game. Kai did not, at all. Damon controlled the common attack +1 most of the game. Warden 816 proved a huge boost to the guards with the +1 move. Enforcers crushed with only 2 Enforcers dead and two wounds on Mistress for a total of 407 points remaining. The dice were so lop-sided it is difficult to count this as a worthy play test.

    Battle #2: Same armies, same map. Dice were more even this game and Kai changed his strategy by protecting the Saars a little more. Zetcron gone in a couple of huge shots before falling. Much closer than the first battle but the Mohicans were totally mowed down by the guards. Damon won with 3 Chainfighters, 2 Enforcers, and the Dumutef remaining for 160 points remaining.

    Battle #3: We figured the Mezzos would give the Enforcers and Drows some challenge with their +1 attack on commons. But the Drow were chain grabbing, hiding in shadows, and the Mezzos went through their exo-skeleton markers quickly because they couldn’t roll defense. The guard army won with Mistress, Warden 816, 3 Chainfighters, and 2 Enforcers left for 335 points. After this game, we decided to bump the Enforcer’s points to 35.

    Battle #4: Damon’s dice finally showed some periods of cold, but he still managed a few clutch defensive rolls. The Spearmen were rolling early and often, but the guard army made a huge comeback. Kai only rolled the Braced Spear power once in like 8-10 tries. Damon landed on the Summoning glyph and pulled in the Bishop, which made a difference. The Fusiliers didn’t do much at all. This turned out to be the most fun and tightly fought battle of the evening. The guard army had an Enforcer and a Chainfighter left for 60 points in victory and finished 4-0 on the day.


    Final thoughts: I think the Enforcers are better pointed at 35. Compared to other 105 point squads, they don’t seem as good. But, their ability to get the Chainfighters into action is huge and they make the Deathwalkers, Wardens, and Zettian Guards more than viable heroes. I still think we need some more play-testing to see if these guys can be beat, but I think they are close.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:49 pm

    There were some not-so-good and then some good matches in there : )

    I wish the Whisper Scouts would have done better but the Mohicans were having a terrible day .. and when the Chainfighers have Move 7 and the Enforcers Move 6 because of the Warden, they can really fly across the board.  I think two Whisper Scouts were KO'ed in one shot (3+ skulls rolled, and 0 shields defended).  The Common Attack glyph helped but yeah - the dice were bad.  Almost makes me want to drop the Whisper Scouts from 55 down to 45, but it was probably just a bad dice-day.

    After these tests, the Enforcer should definitely be 35-points if not a little more.  It is not that the figure itself is powerful - it’s the boost that it gives the Chainfighters.

    The Enforcers stats are probably a 25-point figure but they boost the Chainfighter to about 35-points.  The Hide In Darkness of the Chainfighter, even on normal terrain, for an escape from damage on a 16+ is on par with the MicroCorp Agents.  And with 4 attack 4 defense they are solid.  Throw in the Chain Grab, and they are amazing.

    Maybe the Enforcer is 40-points then .. and if matched with Chainfighters - your "squad" would cost 40 + 25 + 25 = 90 points.  Stronger than the 4/4 Horned Skulls but with 1 better move on average.  This point total would encourage more Chainfighters/Dumetefs in the build over a pure Enforcer army.

    Derek's earlier point about how the Kurrok is needed to allow the Elementals to have that bonding synergy is noted.  Probably trying to do too much with his figure but the pairing with very low-ranked figures like Deathwalkers and other common Guards might be the balance.

    Derek S wrote:The Elementals are similarly priced but require a 120 point investment from Kurrok to get the same sort of activation. I really think these guys are very useful, they look fun, definitely think they are worth more than 30 points, but I also think they are almost a too perfect fit for fixing holes in Heroscape strategy for a 30 point common hero.

    And Kurrok is mostly broken with the Fire Elementals, since multiple turns with Searing Intensity is harsh.

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    Re: W2 Alpha Prime Enforcer - released

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