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    W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

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    Lord Kai

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    W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue May 28, 2013 6:55 pm

    Figures: Confrontation
    Name: Griffins of Akkylannie Templars Attachment Box (3 uniques)

    HEROSCAPE CUSTOM STATS

    Revision:

    Here's a revision:

    Unit Name: Bishop Thaddeus

    General: Einar
    Species: Human
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Cleric
    Personality: Devout
    Size: Medium 5
    Points: 60
    Stats
    Life: 4
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense:4

    Special Powers

    DIVINE GRIMOIRE
    Once per turn when a devout figure you control is destroyed, place a Gold Devotion markers on this card. Before attacking with a normal attack from Bishop Thaddeus or a devout figure you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of Bishop Thaddeus, you may remove one Gold Devotion marker to add 1 attack die.

    BLESSED BLADE
    When Bishop Thaddeus attacks a Demon or Undead figure, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.


    Original Post:
    Spoiler:

    Unit Name: Bishop Thaddeus

    General: Einar
    Species: Human
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Cleric
    Personality: Devout
    Size: Medium 5
    Points: 60
    Stats
    Life: 4
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense:4

    Special Powers
    DIVINE GRIMOIRE

    Once per turn when a devout figure you control is destroyed, place a Gold Devotion markers on this card. Before attacking with a normal attack from Bishop Thaddeus or a devout figure you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of Bishop Thaddeus, you may remove one Gold Devotion marker to add 2 attack dice. If the figure attacked is a Demon, Soulborg, or Undead, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.



    Last edited by Lord Kai on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Nomad on Thu May 30, 2013 8:14 pm

    Love the special power!

    I'll look more closely at the numbers . . . but I'm pretty close to saying "let's play test him!"
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:00 am

    Bishop Thaddeus took a spin during the play-test as well.

    The armies were:

    Torver (new)
    Granite Guardians x3
    Warden 816

    versus

    Concan
    Lord Grayson (new)
    Templars of Kyllian x3 (new)
    Bishop Thaddeus (new)
    Sacred Fusiliers x2

    --
    I used the Sacred Fusiliers with the change to their personality of Devout. This allowed the Bishop to add markers to the DIVINE GRIMORE if the Fusiliers or Templars were destroyed.

    The GRIMORE worked well. At one point, it had four markers and then I finally got the Fusiliers back up to support the Bishop and they got I two attacks of 4 (2 + 2 for Grimore). Not sure if I should limit the use of the Grimore markers to once per turn.

    The Bishop is nicely priced at 60-points, especially since he bonds with the Fusiliers. He ended up squatting on a Move + 2 Glyph trying to hold back the Guardians but eventually he took a big hit from Landslide and expired. He had one marker remaining.


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    Nomad

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    Bishop playtest

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:59 pm

    Sounds good. I'm ready to move to play test phase . . . although I may suggest other names later on Wink
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:17 pm

    Divine Grimoir is neat. I think any poor Demon, undead, or Soulborg (don't really think Soulborg's belong in this power) that get attacked by a squad is going to be made short work of. I would rather see the bonus be 1 attack die at it's base, and 2 attack die against Demon and undead (or 1 with an auto skull). Or it should be limited to once per turn.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:03 am

    DIVINE GRIMOIRE

    Once per turn when a devout figure you control is destroyed, place a Gold Devotion markers on this card. Before attacking with a normal attack from Bishop Thaddeus or a devout figure you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of Bishop Thaddeus, you may remove one Gold Devotion marker to add 2 attack dice. If the figure attacked is a Demon, Soulborg, or Undead, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.


    DEREK
    Divine Grimoir is neat. I think any poor Demon, undead, or Soulborg (don't really think Soulborg's belong in this power) that get attacked by a squad is going to be made short work of. I would rather see the bonus be 1 attack die at it's base, and 2 attack die against Demon and undead (or 1 with an auto skull). Or it should be limited to once per turn.


    Bishop Thaddeus can only gain 1 Gold marker per turn, so even if you lose 3 devout figures (ie, your opponent's squad kills a full squad of Templars) - he's only getting 1 marker. I didn't have a limit on the number of markers that you could spend in 1 turn because of the limitations on its use (you only get markers if your figures are destroyed, you have to be within 4 of the Bishop, and you have to be devout to get the bonus).

    Having said that, I've only done a few play-tests and it was balanced in 2 of the 3, but the third test saw three Sacred Fusiliers with height take down an undamaged Torver in one turn using 2 markers.



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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:18 am

    Having said that, I've only done a few play-tests and it was balanced in 2 of the 3, but the third test saw three Sacred Fusiliers with height take down an undamaged Torver in one turn using 2 markers.

    and imagine adding the automatic skull against Q-9, or Cyprien, etc.. Too much in my opinion.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:58 pm

    The +2 attack bonus is strong but I feel that it is justified because of the limitation of the power:

    Must be within 4 spaces of Bishop Thaddeus
    Must use a Gold Devotion marker - meaning another devout figure was previously destroyed
    Must be a Devout figure to use Divine Grimore


    It probably needs a "Once per Turn" clause. That would still allow the Bishop to use a marker and then potentially a bonding squad like the Fusiliers to get another +2 attack in there.

    In Dungeons & Dragons - Clerics have magic that counters "negative" or Necromantic powers - so their magic is highly effective against Undead and Demons. So I think that they automatic skull for Undead and Demons fits.

    The concept for the auto-skull against Soulborgs was that the 'soul' of the departed devout figure was used as a weapon against the 'soulless' construct. Binding souls into machines is sort of a technological necromancy - so I thought it was appropriate. I could drop the Soulborg part if we thought it was too powerful.


    DIVINE GRIMOIRE

    Once per turn when a devout figure you control is destroyed, place a Gold Devotion markers on this card. Once per turn, before attacking with a normal attack from Bishop Thaddeus or a devout figure you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of Bishop Thaddeus, you may remove one Gold Devotion marker to add 2 attack dice. If the figure attacked is a Demon, Soulborg, or Undead, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Derek S on Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:31 am

    It is strong. That is OK with me. One thing about Heroscape is heroes (and squads for that matter) are often pointed a bit on the high side due to their potential.

    I am worried about it against the Soulborgs (who have souls but are machines otherwise, I think) and I don't think any demon or undead faction is so over powered that they need such a counter.

    I think any ranged devout or loyal squad would benefit extremely- where should those points go?

    Once per turn helps, but I am still not in favor of one common figure worth 20 points throwing 6 attack with an automatic skull against some of the better heroes- that is an attack that should be reserved for heroes or really high priced commons in my humble opinion.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:45 am

    Okay, +2 is probably a bit powerful when used in conjunction with a Templar or even a Cathar Spearmen. I will drop the bonus to +1 and lose the auto-skull but I won't limit the number of uses per turn.


    Here's a revision:

    Unit Name: Bishop Thaddeus

    General: Einar
    Species: Human
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Cleric
    Personality: Devout
    Size: Medium 5
    Points: 60
    Stats
    Life: 4
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 2
    Defense:4

    Special Powers

    DIVINE GRIMOIRE
    Once per turn when a devout figure you control is destroyed, place a Gold Devotion markers on this card. Before attacking with a normal attack from Bishop Thaddeus or a devout figure you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of Bishop Thaddeus, you may remove one Gold Devotion marker to add 1 attack die.

    BLESSED BLADE
    When Bishop Thaddeus attacks a Demon or Undead figure, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Derek S on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:29 pm

    I like the Blessed Blade power.  Is the intent is to be able to remove multiple gold markers for the same attack, or removing 1 gold marker helps all attacks that meet the guidelines, or one marker for one +1 attack (which is the way I understand it, and that you can do one gold marker for multiple attacks that turn)? 

    DIVINE GRIMOIRE
    Once per turn when a devout figure you control is destroyed, place a Gold Devotion markers on this card. Before attacking with a normal attack from Bishop Thaddeus or a devout figure you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of Bishop Thaddeus, you may remove one Gold Devotion marker to add 1 attack die.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:29 pm

    Intent is for only ONE gold devotion marker for + 1 attack.  But there is no limit to the number of markers used in a turn - so two squad figures could each use one marker.
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    Nomad

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    +1 or +2 attack dice

    Post  Nomad on Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:58 am

    I'm not so sure about the number of dice to be added to an attack by removing a gold marker.

    I would like to play test to figure it out. I don't think it would be overly powerful to do +2 for an attack . . . just my opinion. A lot of decision points come into play when deciding to use a gold marker and how to play him. Who is defending? Who is attacking? Is he within the 4 spaces? What will happen next? Where can I move next to get within range of my devout figures? This guy can fall quickly . . . so I can't be to aggressive with him, can I? Do I burn an order marker on him if I don't have Fusiliers to bond?

    Personally, I think it will be much tougher to use well than we might think. But, I could be wrong.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:42 pm

    He works great with the Fusiliers, so the bonding is a huge boost - and they can use the extra punch on a ranged attack.  Of course, one of your figures has to have been destroyed to get the bonus ..

    I don't know if he's worth the OM without the bonding.

    I could see him without the Fusiliers but riding along with the Templars.  Since the Templars bond with Saylind .. she could always teleport him into the battle during the mid to late-game when he's built up counters.  Then he'll be in range of the Templars without using an OM - and able to provide a boost.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Derek S on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:43 pm

    He is a 4 life 5 defensive guy when next to a Fusilier, pretty decent for 60 points.  He bonds with them so should usually be able to stay next to one.  If he stays on the back line after the first wave-say he gets 4 markers, you start doling out the +1 gold tokens and I think he and his will be OK.  I think if he gives off 3 or more +1 tokens in a game he's points ahead (just theory scaping because I like the +2 attack idea as well)
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:51 am

    *bump*

    I'd like to finalize:

    Bishop Thaddeus
    Lord Grayson
    Templars of Kyllian


    I believe the main question left is around the Name of the Templars.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:43 am

    I like the revised powers very much for this figure. I'm still not sold that the number of extra dice needed to drop from 2 to 1, but if that is what you have decided Kai then I'm good with it.

    Is there a maximum number of Gold Markers that the Bishop gets to start the game with?

    I have not play tested this figure yet. Sorry about the delay - I'll give him a whirl soon.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:40 pm

    The Bishop doesn't start with any Gold devotion markers ... a figure has to be destroyed for him to get a marker.

    If we need more playtesting, I'm cool with that.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:47 pm

    Sorry - I didn't mean that he starts with the gold markers on his card. I meant is there a limit to how many gold markers he can have on his card. If I lose 12 Fusiliers, can I have 12 gold markers on his card? I am curious to know how many potential gold markers I need to bring to the table.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:49 pm

    Nomad wrote:Sorry - I didn't mean that he starts with the gold markers on his card. I meant is there a limit to how many gold markers he can have on his card. If I lose 12 Fusiliers, can I have 12 gold markers on his card? I am curious to know how many potential gold markers I need to bring to the table.

    No limit is planned. He can only gain one each turn ... so max. of 3 per round (initiative).

    The most that I had on the Bishop was Six in one game, and he used three of those - then was destroyed with 3 remaining.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Derek S on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:07 pm

    Sorry I haven't had time to give this guy any PT yet. As I stated earlier I do like the possibility of +2 for the attack. But I'd like to see him on the table before passing him to final. Kai, is it possible to update the OP with where he is currently at so there is no confusion when I do have a chance? Thanks.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:20 pm

    Derek S wrote:Sorry I haven't had time to give this guy any PT yet.  As I stated earlier I do like the possibility of +2 for the attack.   But I'd like to see him on the table before passing him to final.  Kai, is it possible to update the OP with where he is currently at so there is no confusion when I do have a chance?  Thanks.


    Original Post updated with Revised stats.

    Using a Spoiler to hide the first draft.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:56 pm

    Kai, thanks for updating the OP. It will be easier to do the play tests from.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:18 pm

    Really enjoyed this guy in the playtests. I think we were all ok with moving him to final editing.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 - Bishop Thaddeus - Released

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:42 pm

    Yep - let's look at any final editing that needs to be done. I will get started on the card.

    Excellent design . . . and I love how he plays with the Fusiliers!

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