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    W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

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    Lord Kai

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    W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue May 28, 2013 6:55 pm

    Figures: Confrontation
    Name: Griffins of Akkylannie Templars Attachment box – modified with Spear (instead of Banner)

    HEROSCAPE CUSTOM STATS

    Unit Name: Baron Sebastian

    General: Einar
    Species: Human
    Type: Unique Hero
    Class: Warrior
    Personality: Valiant
    Size: Medium 5
    Points: 80
    Stats
    Life: 5
    Move: 5
    Range: 1
    Attack: 4
    Defense:4

    Special Powers
    SPEAR OF DAGMAR
    If Baron Sebastian is engaged, you may add 5 to your initiative roll.

    FORCED MARCH
    Before rolling initiative, Baron Sebastian may activate Forced March. If you win initiative, before revealing your first order marker, you may move 3 devout or loyal figures you control up to 4 spaces. Figures moved by Forced March will take any leaving engagement attacks. If you lose initiative, assign 1 wound to either Baron Sebastian or a devout or loyal figure you control.




    Last edited by Lord Kai on Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:57 am; edited 5 times in total
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    Nomad

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    Intrigued . . .

    Post  Nomad on Thu May 30, 2013 8:18 pm

    Great ideas with both of his powers. New and different - we will have to play test this one thoroughly.

    The Devout sure are going to make a whole new faction!

    I am not if favor of losing the beautiful banner on the mini! Who says a general (Einar) can't have two flag bearers? Hatomoto has the Asian realm covered, this dude gets to do the European realm?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu May 30, 2013 11:00 pm

    The funny part for me about the banner is that my figure's banner was broken off in shipment Sad

    That is what gave me the idea to put a spear there instead .. and it worked very well. If we approve this hero, we can just sacrifice a squad of Templars to modify with spears so we can each have one.

    Until then, he can be playtested with the Tarn Viking with the Spear.
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    Derek S

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    Templar hero-lord greyson

    Post  Derek S on Fri May 31, 2013 1:10 am

    I'm not sure what figure we are talking about here. Are we talking about the white Templar with the red & white banner with the Gold in the center. If so I am not interested in modifying it myself-(although mine is broken as well)- too cool of a fig as is. I do like the design though. Perhaps we could find an alternate figurine or change the names of the powers. "The Banner of Dagmar" instead. If we did this though, his base attack should drop to 3, but I think the defense could up to 5.

    "Forced March" is very cool. I might even up the ante a bit. If Forced March is activated and you win initiative you must reveal your X marker (maybe this is how you activate Forced March by revealing x marker before initiative). If you win initiative you may move 1 order marker to a different card and move 3 devout or loyal figures 4 spaces. If you lose initiative place a wound on the closest devout/loyal character, if same distance choose who to place the wound on(you could keep the rolling attack die here). I really don't think Lord Grayson should be able to take the wound as he is the one giving the orders, or forcing the march as I see it.

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri May 31, 2013 1:45 am


    Glad you like FORCED MARCH. I was trying to find a balance for moving figures each round before order markers. Maybe the risk is wounding someone other than Lord Grayson. There are some combos - like if Forced March fails and you destroy a devout figure, you can place a counter on Bishop Thaddeus to power is DIVINE GRIMORE Wink

    It could certainly use some play-testing, as it is just an idea at the moment.

    We can be flexible on the figure. Sounds like you both have one with a Banner which is great. That also means you have the Cleric - Bishop Thaddeus as well. We could use Templar with the "Horn" to represent the horn calling in reinforcements.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:55 am

    I tried out Lord Grayson in a play-test with the following:

    The armies were:

    Torver (new)
    Granite Guardians x3
    Warden 816

    versus

    Concan
    Lord Grayson (new)
    Templars of Kyllian x3 (new)
    Bishop Thaddeus (new)
    Sacred Fusiliers x2

    ==

    He worked pretty well, though I had a small number of Templars - so I didn't risk the FORCED MARCH until Lord Grayson was engaged. I did win initiative and the 'March was perfect to move up 3 Templars into engagement. This was perfect because the Templars normally have an attack of 3 but if they start their turn engaged they go to 4 attack.

    Lord Grayson did well - engaging with two Granite Guardians and holding his own but then a 4 skull 'landslide' attack finished him off prematurely. I could have taken more risks with FORCED MARCH and it might have helped (as the GG's rolled to the win).

    He might be over-costed at 80-points, since you are only getting limited use of Forced March.

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jun 02, 2013 4:27 pm

    After two more play-tests, I think that FORCED MARCH needs a tweak. Its not completely broken, and it helps move the slow Templars (4 move) at the beginning of the round.

    In the 2nd and 3rd matches, I kept Lord Grayson back and tried FORCED MARCH every round. I had a good string of wins on Initiative - so Forced March worked and he didn't suffer any wounds. Since I had two Heroes that the Templars could bond with - Concan was out doing the fighting and Grayson was back rallying the troops and giving the move-bbonus. It would well - and the benefit to the Templars of being moved by FORCED MARCH - and then starting their turn engaged to bump their attack to 4 is great. Works like as I imagined it would (provided you win initiative).


    Since it is a risk-reward power, I'm going to make the wound automatic if you lose initiative.

    Original:
    FORCED MARCH
    Before rolling initiative, Lord Grayson may activate Forced March. If you win initiative, before revealing your first order marker, you may move 3 devout or loyal figures you control up to 4 spaces. If you lose initiative, roll 1 attack dice. If you roll a skull, assign 1 wound to either Lord Grayson or a devout or loyal figure you control.

    Revision:
    FORCED MARCH
    Before rolling initiative, Lord Grayson may activate Forced March. If you win initiative, before revealing your first order marker, you may move 3 devout or loyal figures you control up to 4 spaces. If you lose initiative, assign 1 wound to either Lord Grayson or a devout or loyal figure you control.

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    Nomad

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    RE: Forced March, etc

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:39 pm

    I prefer the change to an automatic wound for not winning initiative.

    Just some thoughts:

    So, before rolling for initiative the player simply needs to announce "I'm going to go for a Forced March?" What if we added that the had to have their X and turn it over before rolling for initiative, or, have at least one order marker on Lord Grayson (which could be the X)? Perhaps by revealing the X, you wouldn't need to do an auto wound - it would be penalty enough when coupled with rolling an attack die.

    Regarding the name: Why Lord Grayson? Why not "Lord of Arogone" or something else that ties them to the Cathars? Unless you want to break from the Cathar Spearmen and Count Raymond, I don't see why we can't unite these guys somehow through the names. Just my two cents.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:37 pm

    I think there should be some symbol that activates forced march- revealing the X Marker makes the most sense so far. The loss of the X marker is significant, but the Shield of Devotion masks this significantly.

    I prefer the automatic wound but I still think that Lord Grayson (or whatever his name becomes) should not receive the wound. He is the one giving the orders for Forced March, so he should symbolically be the one that doles out the punishment if orders aren't followed.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:20 am

    I put the "timing" for FORCED MARCH like the Airbourne Elite drop .. before you roll initiative you state that you are going to activate a power. Following that model, I didn't think the X-order marker was needed.

    I don't think that the power would be used very much if the wound was both automatic AND going to a squad figure. In concept the Risk/Reward of the power is someone taking damage if the Forced March doesn't work. You might want to destroy a Templar to then add a Gold Marker to Bishop Thaddeus' DIVINE GRIMORE, or you might want Lord Grayson to suck up the damage. You also have the option to risk putting Lord Grayson into engagement to get the +5 to initiative. The Spear of Dagmar makes the probability of FORCED MARCH higher but then 'Grayson is in melee so you don't want to have his Life depleted too much.

    I could change the name of FORCED MARCH to DIVINE CALL TO ARMS or something, implying that magical power is flowing through Lord Grayson to inspire his soldiers to move forward. If he doesn't channel the power correctly, he takes a wound.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:13 am

    The +5 for initiative (or +8 ) is when I see the power utilized, or when you really need to position your guys and want to take a chance. Lord Grayson (or whatever) is in the mix and getting his boys to position with his orders, then they follow up with a bang.

    Maybe Forced March can be used if at least one order marker is on Lord Grayson (probably the X). This might be best.

    The wound isn't necessarily going on a squad figure, just not Lord Grayson.

    If you ended using the figure with a horn, the power could be "call to arms" or "head the horn" or such.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:15 am

    You could also add +1 to initiative for every knight, or every devout/loyal, or ?, that is within 4-8 spaces if you use Forced March.

    The power should also state whether or not figures take leaving engagements I think.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:29 am

    FORCED MARCH
    Before rolling initiative, Lord Grayson may activate Forced March. If you win initiative, before revealing your first order marker, you may move 3 devout or loyal figures you control up to 4 spaces. Figures moved by Forced March will take any leaving engagement attacks. If you lose initiative, assign 1 wound to either Lord Grayson or a devout or loyal figure you control.



    Good catch on the leaving engagements.

    As for the naming and who gets the wound - this was one of those customs where I thought of the "Power" first and figuring out the mechanic second. I think it is balanced when compared to Sir Gilbert (who is 20-points more) - but it needs some more testing.

    I built a new map last night so I'm hoping to get in some games in the next few days.
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    Nomad

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    Loyal?

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:07 pm

    I wouldn't mind if we dropped the loyal (includes Greenscales, Nagrubs, Warforged, and Zettian Infantry) and just go with Devout now that the Fusiliers have been changed.

    What do you think?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:59 pm

    Nomad wrote:I wouldn't mind if we dropped the loyal (includes Greenscales, Nagrubs, Warforged, and Zettian Infantry) and just go with Devout now that the Fusiliers have been changed.

    What do you think?

    I had the loyal in their for the Fusiliers, so as long as they stay in - Perfect!
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Derek S on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:40 pm

    Kai, is your banner and such repairable? 

    If it is maybe we could tie Forced March in with the flag bearer's dice.  A kind of play of Sir Denrick.  But if yours is not repairable I won't suggest anything.  Neat power as it is.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:32 pm

    I think it is repairable but it snapped off at the 'hand.'  So the hand is still holding the banner.  I think that the figure looks pretty cool with the spear though : )

    I liked your idea of also using the Templar with the Horn .. and that could be symbolic of the Forced March.
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    Nomad

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    Banner?

    Post  Nomad on Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:46 am

    I can try to help you repair the banner. I am still in search of one more squad of Templar Calvary, so I don't even want to mess with the ones I have. Perhaps we can do two cards - one with the banner, one with the joust.

    I really love the look of that banner though. I think this sculpt should be another flag bearer . . . who says a general (Einar) can't have two?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:17 am

    His forced March cost him a couple of wounds and knights.  Neat character, was interesting to play with, good addition.  Need to decide on a  figurine here.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:52 am

    *bump*

    I'd like to finalize:

    Bishop Thaddeus
    Lord Grayson
    Templars of Kyllian


    I believe the main question left is around the Name of the Templars.

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:30 am

    Have we settled on the figurine?

    I prefer to keep the figurine with the banner. If not that one, then we would need choose a different figure. I'm not willing to cut up a Templar Calvary and I think that the figure is awesome with the banner - this would also mean changing the power to "Banner of Dagmar." Kai, I can help you repair the broken figure you have or I will buy you a new one.

    Lord Grayson is so English. Since this figure has the same markings as the Cathars, I propose we change the name to Lord of Arogone or Arogone Lord or Lord Arogone. (Arogone was the realm in southern France whose king supported the Cathar movement and provided most of the army in the battles of the Inquisition).

    Comments please.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:32 am

    RE: Figure .. since my banner is broken, I need to use the modified figure that I made. You two can use the figure with the original banner. I would consider it a favor to make a second card for me that had a picture of my mini (so I could keep it in my collection).

    RE: Grayson .. I guess what you are saying is that I need to find a French name because the Cathar have the sample shield symbol. I'll have to think about that.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:27 am

    Kai wrote:RE: Figure .. since my banner is broken, I need to use the modified figure that I made. You two can use the figure with the original banner. I would consider it a favor to make a second card for me that had a picture of my mini (so I could keep it in my collection).

    Thank you for responding to this concern. Can we do our NWHC release with the figure with the banner? This would mean renaming the power if that is OK. The name of the power depends on the figure - yes, I can do an alternate card for you, but I don't think it should be part of our NWHC release (how many people can or are willing to cut off a Templar lance to glue it to a figure that looks very cool already?). I can't put forth the figure with the Templar Calvary lance to others . . . for the first time, this is a deal breaker for me. Sorry. But, as I have said, I can help you fix yours.

    Kai wrote:
    RE: Grayson .. I guess what you are saying is that I need to find a French name because the Cathar have the sample shield symbol. I'll have to think about that.

    The name refers to how we want to tie it to previous heroscape/C3V lore. I'm not sure if this really matters, but I think it was worth bringing up at the time. I was just trying to suggest some continuity to what is already out there. Since the "Templars of Ascalon" are not tied to the "Cathar Spearmen" than I have no problem with keeping this guy as "Lord Grayson." I just felt it was worth bringing up. I'm a detail person, for better or worse.

    I can live with "Lord Grayson" as our collaborative release - no biggie.

    Thanks for acknowledging these inputs on your design.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:39 am

    Can we do our NWHC release with the figure with the banner?


    Sure, that is not a problem and that is my expectation.


    But personally I like my version with the spear .. so I will keep it as is (modified). I would appreciate a 2nd version of the card just for me : )
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Templar Hero - Baron Sebastian - Released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:01 am

    I can do the alternate card - no problem.

    Thank you for addressing some of my concerns regarding this design.

    He play-tested well - it is just a matter of what exactly we want to share with the public as our collaborative effort and recommend as the figurine in case others would like to partake as well.


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