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    W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:43 pm

    NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Demon Stalkers of Kresnik (I went with the stats in the OP)

    THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects. The double attack fits the sculpt and the powers are themed well with the idea behind the figure.

    FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play? Amazingly fun for me. They were a definite steam roller in this match-up with the slashing and gunning.

    FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying? Slightly tough to figure out what bonus the opponent got/didn't get, but I figured it out quick enough. It is new to HS, so like all new powers it took a few turns to get it straight. Since this was all undead/demon opponent, they were pretty hamstrung.

    USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable? All powers are usable and were used. The difference between making the powers on all cards or only on cards that are demons/undead didn't matter in this battle, since all of the opponent's were demon/undead.

    STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game? Tons of new things to think about. The biggest tactic would be to not count on any powers or bonuses when facing the DSofK if you're fielding demons/undead.

    BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately? No bonding loops. All is good here.

    SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak? Hmm . . . more playtesting is needed. It was pretty close to breaking this team of demons/undead, who lost a ton in their bonuses. Against demons/undead, the DSofK were uber awesome.

    POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including released C3V and SoV units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? This match-up was specifically designed to see if they would break demons/undead. More play-testing is needed, but I think 80 points is too low.

    DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting? Yes - especially against demons/undead. I will run more playtests against a non demon/undead team to see how they fare.

    MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game? No

    ARMY TEST 1

    Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. [insert pass/fail, point value, and brief summary] Too early to assign a pass or fail at this point. This battle was just to see what affect they would have against a demon/undead army. Based on this match-up, I would suggest that the DSoK should be around 130 to 140 points per squad . . . best guest based on this match-up against this opponent, on Sirocco, etc. Although, when we play tested at Derek's v. Chela and demons, I was thinking around 110. More play tests or changes will help to determine this down the road. I was pretty surprised at how dominant they were without having a stud like Chela to absorb attacks.

    Just to keep track of how much impact the DSoK had against demons/undead. In the 4+ rounds:

    DeathKnights of Valkrill: affected 10 times for bonuses (4 no-reduction in def. rolls by DSoK, 3 no-shadow in def., 2 no-height in def/att, and 1 no-jungle in def).

    Skull Demons: affected 14 times for bonuses (5 no frightening presence, 3 no height in def/att, 3, no shadow, 3 attack aura for DKoV).

    Cyprien: affected 13 times for bonuses (5 chilling touch reductions, 8 no height in att/def). Also, Van Nessing's power reduced Cyprien's Chilling Touch once.


    Map: Sirocco

    Units:

    Army 1: Death Stalkers of Kresnik x4, Van Nessing, Martial La Hire, Isamu = 505 points

    VS

    Army 2: Death Knights of Valkrill x3, Skull Demon x2, Cyprein, Sonya = 505 points

    Rd 1. The DKofV went right with after a Skull Demon. The DSofK, realizing that shadows/height wouldn't bother their efforts charged the middle. Van Nessing took a turn to join the fray. At the end of the round, 4 DKoV and 1 DSoK died. A Death Knight did manage to reach the Def+1 glyph, which did help the others in defense (the bonus from glyphs was removed, or they wouldn't have gotten this bonus).

    Rd 2. Two turns for DSoK and one for Van Nessing still charging up the middle. A Skull Demon and the DKoV tried to stem the tide . . . 1 DKoV, 1 Skull Demon, and 2 DSoK died in the round. Van Nessing did get a +2 attack on the SD to knock him out with his power.

    Rd 3. All DSoK v. All Cyprien this round. The last DKoV got killed, 4 wounds were placed on Cyprien (who was trying to dart about), and 2 more DSoK died. Cyprien was able to head two of his wounds with kills.

    Rd 4. More engagement with the DSoK and Cyprien . . . they brought the Vamp back up to 4 wounds and also placed a wound on Sonya. Cyp went back to try to take care of the Stalker engaged with his beloved but failed. On OM#3, Van Nessing used his double turn to take out Cyprien . . . and Sonya died as well of heart break.

    Rd 5. First OM of the round - three DSoK engage the final Skull Demon (who had 1 wound from a previous pot shot). Prepared to roll a total of 17 attack dice on the poor fellow, the first Stalker attack mercifully took him out of the game.

    Final thoughts: La Hire, Isamu, and 4 DSoK did not move. The anti-undead team won with 314 points left. Van Nessing had three order markers on him in the game and he used them very well. The DSoK negated a total of 37 potential dice bonuses by the demon/undead team and it proved to be too much. Alone, a 3 person squad with the potential for double attack is pretty powerful, especially against this team. I will run another play test to see how they fare against the Stinger/Nagrub army. But, if we were to assign points on potential . . . I'm thinking these guys are around 130-140 as written. This is only one test. Since these negation powers are mostly new, we will need to do a number of tests to get them figured out.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:35 pm

    Nice report thanks Damon!

    I am a little surprised they overwhelmed that much (I haven't played or seen Van Nessing play yet though). I couple of things we can probably take from this playtest as to what we want to do:

    A-Point Cost
    1) Do we want them to be a 80-90 point character- we probably drop the modifiers and give them +1 attack/defense against undead/demon
    2) somewhere in between 90-110- we make a few minor tweaks to lesson their impact on demon/undead
    3) above 110 or 120- I think they should work against all characters not Demon/undead only to give them some playability outside the demon/undead opponents.

    I don't really care where we go there.

    Not a big fan of the power name Counter the Dark Arts. Demon hunters study the dark arts so much they start to change themselves, so counter doesn't quite work for me. I think the modify(ier) language is a step in the right direction.

    I still have some concern over their encounter with the Gladiatrons- which card wins out. (This could potentially be an issue if a demon/undead comes out with a never or always power). I still think the Glads card would trump but it is pretty debatable. Perhaps we could go to move, attack, defense value modified. This would mean that if a power says they can't roll defensive they can't, but if it says they roll 2 less die they would still roll the 2 die- if this makes sense. So against Zelrig or Chela they would roll normal dice. Against Retchets, Deathstalkers, Cowboy dude, etc, they could not roll D, likewise Chela couldn't reduce their move, but Glad's could prevent their move.

    Maybe as simple as
    MASTERY OF THE DARK ARTS
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power dice bonuses when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik. A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move altered value reduced by an opponent's Demon or Undead Army Card (or all). When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik you control, you may reduce the roll by 2.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:40 pm

    OOPS - I was typing this up while you posted your last one post.

    NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Demon Stalkers of Kresnik (I went with the stats in the OP).

    THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects. Should affect destructible objects. For a common squad to have the potential of a double attack is immense, but it fits the sculpt.

    FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play? Very much so - I was able to roll 25 attack dice in one OM! This guys are really a melee squad - with two attacks. But, if you can't reach a figure, you can always give them a pop of your pistol. Fun to play with!

    FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying? Not bad, but knowing that if Tork got engaged with a couple of them, you were pretty much done was annoying. But once the battlefield was cleared of DSoK, Isamu was able to make quick work of Van Nessing and La Hire.

    USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable? All powers are usable and were used. The difference between making the powers on all cards or only on cards that are demons/undead didn't matter in this battle, since none of the opponent's figures were undead/demon.

    STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game? Engage, engage, engage! You get two attacks! The move of 6 for a ranged common squad is huge! I forgot to mention that in the previous play test, but it made a difference many times.

    BONDING TEST: Same as previous report.

    SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak? More play testing is needed. A few squads and Raelin and Rats would be a deadly combo! But what isn't.

    POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including released C3V and SoV units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? See previous report v. demons/undead.

    DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting? Yes - at 80 points per squad, I would go to these guys before any other pointed squad at 80 or less, even against teams that don't have Demons/Undead.

    MIRROR TEST: See previous report.

    ARMY TEST 1

    Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. [insert pass/fail, point value, and brief summary] Too early to assign a pass or fail at this point, but I would have to say a FAIL at 80 points per squad. Yes - they lost. But I got careless that last couple of turns and I really didn't think that Isamu would take out 130+ points on his own.

    Without the negations against Demons/Undead . . . hmm . . . over MCTroopers/WoB/MacDirks each for 80? Yes! Gorillinators/Hounds for 90? Yes! Eradicators for 90? Hmm. GG/MCAgents/Quasatch/Snipers/Shades at 100? Yes. Skeletons/Minions/Sentinels/Protectors at 105/110? Yes and no.

    So, I guess I would say the point value should be about 105/110 without the negation powers v. undead/demon. Dropping the move from 5 to 6 would have some impact on points. With the negation powers, I still think these guys should be about 130 points.

    The biggest thing is having the double attack potential. With height and engaged, you are looking 21 attack dice. Bonuses for glyphs can bring that up, as this game saw. A Common Attack +1 appeared for the first time in my last 6 play tests. The Stingers benefited first . . . then it caused hard choice for the DSoK - leave the glyph to get a double attack, or get a +1 for the glyph? I chose to leave the glyph both times I was presented with the choice.


    Map: Sirocco

    Units:

    Army 1: Death Stalkers of Kresnik x4, Van Nessing, Martial La Hire = 495 points

    VS

    Army 2: Stingers x3, Nagrubs x3, Tor-Kul-Na, Isamu = 500 points

    Rd 1. Much different strategy for the DSoK . . . with out the negation powers, they decided to match the Stingers by flanking left and right to height. At the end of the round, 4 Stingers and 2 DSoK were dead. One particular DSoK killed all 4 Stingers - engage - slice, range - kapow. And the same the next OM.

    Rd 2. With Stingers falling and the Common Attack glyph revealed, Tork took off to heights (trample one, kill another DSoK) on the right side but got engaged by two DSoK. Oh no. The DSoK had 19 attack dice! 4 wounds on Tork, but the 2 attacks on a Grub failed. At the end of the round, in addition to the wounds on Tork, 1 Stinger, 2 Grubs, and 2 DSoK died.

    Rd 3. The DSoK win initiative and get to roll 25 attack dice on their first OM. Bye-bye Tork. The remaining Stingers fought valiently. At the end of the round. Tork, 2 Stingers, 3 Grubs, and 3 DSoK are killed.

    Rd 4. The last Stinger sprints down the hill and rolls 4/4 on Nessing for 3 wounds. A few more killings. At the end of the round it is Isamu v. 1 DSoK, Van Nessing with 3 wounds, and a full life La Hire.

    Rd 5. Chase/Vanish/Chase/Vanish . . . after 3 vanishes, Isamu manages to take out the last DSoK and place another wound on Nessing.

    Rd 6. 6 more vanishes! Isamu finishes off Nessing and then attacks La Hire twice 2/4 skulls, and then 3/3 skulls. La Hire whiffed on both rolls and died. I noticed that La Hire's double attack is worthless when Isamu vanishes on the first attack.

    Final thoughts: OK, so if we valued every figure based on potential then Isamu is worth about 130 points. DSoK are probably the best common squad I've seen with out synergy/bonding. I would put them on par or better with Sentinels/Minions and even better than the 140 pt. Imperium. Recommendatons: Drop their move to 5. If we want to keep their powers as is . . . I see them at 110 points easily. If we add against any card for the last power (just hope you are not playing demons/undead against these guys), then probably 130 or more. I haven't play tested the other option yet, so it is too early to say for sure. If I were to run this battle again where they were at 110, I would have dropped Martial and 1 squad and then added Raelin, which may have been better. I could have also been more careful later in the game against complacency and brought Nessing out and up so that he didn't get some free shots taken on him.

    Fun game - it is always good to see Isamu get 9 vanishes in a row (9, 12, 12, 14, 18, 18, 19, 19, 20 - not in that order), and roll great attacks.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:02 am

    We need to explore dropping their move from 6 to 5.

    My initial thought is their 6 move is portraying the demon hunters sneakiness/elusiveness/etc. thematic powers, which is why they started with a 6 move and not a 5 move. But it is such a subtle thematic notion we can take a look.

    25 attack die in one turn! Ouch for the opponent. 3 engaged attacks with height and glyph is 15 die, 3 second attacks with height and glyph is 12 die. Potentially 27 unless their is another attack glyph out there. Too much in my opinion- although the Einar Imperium can best them. Perhaps we can make it so they aren't receiving the bonuses just like their demon/undead counterparts or we can make it so their 2nd attack never exceeds 2 (which I am not so sure I like). I dunno right now, maybe some more tests will show the way.

    Thanks for all the testing lately Damon, it is much appreciated.

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:09 am

    Did it again . . .

    Derek wrote:A-Point Cost
    1) Do we want them to be a 80-90 point character- we probably drop the modifiers and give them +1 attack/defense against undead/demon
    2) somewhere in between 90-110- we make a few minor tweaks to lesson their impact on demon/undead
    3) above 110 or 120- I think they should work against all characters not Demon/undead only to give them some playability outside the demon/undead opponents.
    First off, I would reduce their move to 5. This made a huge difference in getting a double attack or not and is worth at least 10 points in cost. This is all based on just 2 playtests, so it is still early to tell. I think the test we did down there at you place was an anomaly - you rolled like poop and Chela was a huge screen for me. Here are my opinions at this point:

    1) Maybe at 90 points. But even against non undead/demons they are pretty good. With a drop to Move 5, I would put them right up there with Sentinels and Minions.
    2) Maybe at 110, we make tweaks to lessen the impact on demon and undead . . . and drop Move to 5.
    3) I haven't play tested yet against other powers on non-undead/demon cards, so I'm not sure yet of the impact.

    Separating the power into two powers might be more clear - Van Nessing does have two powers against Undead, so we wouldn't be breaking new ground. So, your original idea of two separate powers works for me . . .

    Derek wrote:Not a big fan of the power name Counter the Dark Arts. Demon hunters study the dark arts so much they start to change themselves, so counter doesn't quite work for me. I think the modify(ier) language is a step in the right direction.
    I agree. Stay with the theme . . . "Study of the Dark Arts."

    Derek wrote:
    I still have some concern over their encounter with the Gladiatrons- which card wins out. (This could potentially be an issue if a demon/undead comes out with a never or always power). I still think the Glads card would trump but it is pretty debatable. Perhaps we could go to move, attack, defense value modified. This would mean that if a power says they can't roll defensive they can't, but if it says they roll 2 less die they would still roll the 2 die- if this makes sense. So against Zelrig or Chela they would roll normal dice. Against Retchets, Deathstalkers, Cowboy dude, etc, they could not roll D, likewise Chela couldn't reduce their move, but Glad's could prevent their move.

    Maybe as simple as
    MASTERY OF THE DARK ARTS
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power dice bonuses when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik. A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move altered value reduced by an opponent's Demon or Undead Army Card (or all). When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik you control, you may reduce the roll by 2.
    By taking out the "never" and having it replaced by "reduced" does seem to address the concerns with the Gladiatrons.

    Just reading the no dice v. reduced dice gets confusing to me . . . and even more so when I try to think how to word it. Isn't rolling no dice a reduction of dice?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:44 am


    Damon wrote:Just reading the no dice v. reduced dice gets confusing to me . . . and even more so when I try to think how to word it. Isn't rolling no dice a reduction of dice?
    Yes, rolling no dice is a reduction. What I was trying to get at was powers that state they can't roll dice or move still affect them- not like the D.O. power of the Sidhe where they are not affected by that attack. I think you got this though and it would be difficult to come up with proper language for this idea.

    Ultimately they are 1 win and 3 losses (thanks to Isamu's amazing vanishing). 1 of the 2 games we played down here was semi close the other not so much. These guys should end up 100+ points ultimately unless we drop points, I don't remember what we playtested them at here but I think it was more than 80, maybe even 110. With only 3 squads owned (don't really plan on getting more) I don't have a problem with them being relatively high priced.

    Let's try them at 100 or 110 with a 6 move and see how they fare,
    or
    Let's try them at 90-95 with 5 move and see how they fare.

    I think if they fall at 110 or less I am ok.

    I would like to separate the last power for clarity (I think), if we stick with it in a similar form.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:00 am

    Yes - I got it, but working out the language could get confusing (I was playing dumb).

    So, from what I understand, our goal is to get these guys to be 110 or less?

    That move of 6 was pretty powerful with the double attack if they are engaged. Some of their bonuses will have to drop quite a bit. I was thinking they were about 110 without their bonuses (only in two playtests though).

    I know that they are 1-3 overall. But one of those down there the dice were a significant factor. And the last one up here was really convincing, but I got careless the last 2-3 rounds and then Isamu. I didn't place markers on anything but DSoK until Nessing had 3 wounds. I really wanted to see what they could do on their own.

    That said, with these new powers much more play testing will be needed. Yes, the Imperium could potentially roll more dice . . . but they have to be engaged to make all of their attacks. The DSoK can make pot shots on their way up, and then if they kill one while engaged, they can make a pot shot against someone else. An attack of 3 with height from three figures ain't all that bad just on its own.

    Don't misunderstand me. I love the concept behind these guys and all of the powers. I just don't want them too overpriced or too powerful.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:31 am

    So, from what I understand, our goal is to get these guys to be 110 or less?
    I don't really care if they end up more or less through playtesting, I was just trying to gauge their points from the 4 playtests. I do think if they end up 180 I will want to change the design. If they are 130 that's ok. I was more talking about changes in points or powers before further playtesting.

    That said, with these new powers much more play testing will be needed. Yes, the Imperium could potentially roll more dice . . . but they have to be engaged to make all of their attacks. The DSoK can make pot shots on their way up, and then if they kill one while engaged, they can make a pot shot against someone else. An attack of 3 with height from three figures ain't all that bad just on its own.
    This is a great point. The only balance I can argue here is the flying/non-flying aspect of the Imperium. Hopefully these guys end up good with a proper point cost.

    Don't misunderstand me. I love the concept behind these guys and all of the powers. I just don't want them too overpriced or too powerful.
    I agree with too overpriced/ too powerful. Hopefully I didn't make you feel like I misunderstood you. I'm just working through the process/information that I interpreted. Nothing intended to be offensive or anything, but trying making the best character from my part. I took it that your interest and such was the same- to make the best character. No misunderstandings from my part, hopefully none from yours.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:11 am

    The "don't misunderstand me" was just a figure of speech. If we were chatting, I would say "Don't misunderstand me, I love these guys and their design. We just need to get the points/powers right."

    The "don't misunderstand me" part would fall to the side as an idiom for trying to reach consensus. You are doing a great job trying to weigh all of the suggestions and input. It ain't easy . . . and I feel this squad might be in for the long hall because of all the potential negations, new powers, and needed play tests to get it where we are all fairly comfortable.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:24 pm


    I was reading Van Nessing's Bio and I think he's a "hybrid" because was infected with lycanthrope just before he was taken to Valhalla. The other Demon Stalker of Kresnik were Elves.

    And if they are elves, they can benefit from Acolarh and other elf boosters ; )
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:09 pm

    Are these the stats we're using?

    Name- Demon Stalkers of Kresnik
    Planet- Feylund
    General- Aquilla
    Figures Used- Confrontation Demon Hunters
    Common Squad- 3 figures
    Hunters
    Fearless
    Medium 5
    Life 1
    Move 6
    Range 5
    Attack 2
    Defense 3
    Points-110 points

    Dual Wield
    If a Demon Stalker of Kresnik attacks an adjacent figure with his first attack, add 1 to the attack value for the first attack.  After attacking an adjacent figure a Demon Stalker of Kresnik may attack 1 additional time.  If the Demon Stalkers of Kresnik attack again, they may target and attack a demon or undead even it they are still engaged.

    Mastery of the Dark Arts
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power bonuses when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik.   A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move altered by an opponents card.   When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll may be reduced by 2.

    --
    Move 5 or 6 ?  I guess Move 5 is about average.  Move 6 puts them in Krav Maga territory.


    I'm okay with Mastery of the Dark Arts working against all opponent's cards .. but I think the trade off is that the DSoK would be 110 points.  I think with double-attack and their specials they are rivaling an Einar Imperium or Minion of Utgar.

    These guys are coming along nicely, and I think the comparison to the Einar Imperium is a good one.  The EI should probably be priced at 110 anyway, so I'm cool with that.

    Would you play them at 110 points if you were not facing Demon/Undead?  A quick movement, ranged attack, double-melee attack squad?
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:23 pm

    I would play them at 110 even if I wasn't up against a Demon/Undead army.

    Derek, based on my play tests and the discussion, can you update the OP for where you would like them play tested next? Change points, separate powers, or any other slight changes you want to do, etc. Maybe we just give them a whirl as is at 110?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:25 pm

    I am working with the computer at work so if I can't get it done soon without issues I'll do it tonight or tomorrow evening.
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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:43 pm

    OP updated realizing they still may combine the last 2 powers into 1, move may end up at 5, points are still in question, and the wording isn't perfect (hopefully the intent is though).

    I am still a little uncertain if I have addressed all the input and if this is the best direction for the characters.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:55 pm

    Here is my idea behind assigning the species of Hybrid.

    Since these Demon Stalkers study the arts of darkness and demonhood so much to combat their foes effectively, they themselves have been transformed into a state of part Elf and part Demon. I think it fits the theme.

    A Hybrid does not necessarily have to have been lycanthropied by a werewolf.

    We would have to rethink much and do more playtests if these guys got Elf synergy. If not Hybrid, how about Half-Elf?
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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:01 pm

    I am happy with Hybrid until I have a chance to dissect Van's bio. Half-elf, hybrid-elf, elf hybrid, & many more possibilities if Hybrid don't work.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:22 pm

    NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Demon Stalkers of Kresknik (using the stats in the revised OP).

    THEME TEST: PASS - excellent pairing of scuplt with the theme and powers.

    FUN TEST: PASS - Really fun, you have so many options as how you want to play the DSoK.

    FUN OPPOSITION TEST: PASS - no real annoyances, other than they were slightly difficult for Tor-Kul-Na to Trample Stomp for some reason.

    USAGE TEST: INCONCLUSIVE - In these two battles, the DSoK did not use any of their special powers against Demons/Undead because the Marro army didn't field any.

    STRATEGY TEST: SUPER PASS. The DSoK offer so many potential strategies. Pod them up on height and bang away with 3 attacks of 3. Charge them forward and get that double attack in engagement. It is really hard to pull back and play them safely when you could get that double attack. Their move of 6 allows them to get places relatively quick - the only other ranged common squad with a move of 6 are the Arrow Gruts.

    BONDING TEST: PASS.

    SYNERGIES TEST: PASS - Yes, the attack glyphs make these guys super tough if you are lucky enough to get one. Another ideal to bring down the points might be to make their double attack a special attack which wouldn't be modified by height/glyphs.

    POWER CHECK: INCONCLUSIVE - Again, since I didn't use any of the powers in these two battles against Demons/Undead.

    DRAFTING TEST: PASS - I would take these guys any day in a draft even at 110 points. They are fun!

    MIRROR TEST: PASS

    ARMY TEST 1

    Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Very adequate. 105 points with out using the powers against demons/undead. See final thoughts for summary.

    Map: Sirocco

    Units:

    Army 1: DSoK x3, Van Nessing, Zetacron = 495 points

    VS

    Army 2: Stingers x4, Nagrubs x1, Tor-Kul-Na, Isamu = 500 points (A- army).

    BATTLE 1

    Rd 1. Team Marro tried a different strategy - the charged Tork up the middle of the map from the get go in the attempt to take out as many DSoK as possible and allow the Stingers do clean-up. All markers went on the DSoK. After OM #3, 3 DSoK died and Tork received 1 wound. And then, on OM#3 for the DSoK, 3 of them sprinted up to take on Tork head-to-head on even ground. 6 attacks later and 15 dice, the big fellow fell hard. It was really interesting to have a common squad with range rush up and take on a huge tough guy.

    Rd 2. OK, all Stingers all the time. The DSoK cleaned out the Nagrubs in the middle of the map and 3 Stingers fell, 2 buy Van Nessing - but it came at a cost. The Stingers managed to take out 3 DSoK and place 3 wounds on Nessing (whiffed in 5 def roll).

    Rd 3. The Stingers took out Nessing on OM#1 - lost OM. The DSoK killed a Stinger. Then the Stingers fired skulls and took out the last 3 DSoK - another lost OM. The route is on.

    Rd 4. On the first attack in the round, Zeta whiffed on his defense roll and the game was over.

    Team Marro had 170 points left on the battlefield. The 330-point DSoK killed 290 points of Team Marro.


    BATTLE 2 (Since that first one went so quick). Same Armies.

    Rd 1. Team Marro decided rushing Tork in didn't really work last game, so the resorted to sending Stingers to height left and right. The DSoK split their attention, left-right-and-center. The DSoK couldn't roll defense or attack. At the end of the round, 1 Stinger dead and 4 DSoK dead. Ouch.

    Rd 2. A Stinger snuck around the hill and fired a 2/4 attack on Zeta, who promptly whiffed again and died (what a waste of 60 points in 2 straight games). But, the DSoK turned the tide through strategic placements and double attacks. 1 DSoK dead, 5 Stingers dead, and 1 wound on Nessing.

    Rd 3. More of the same this round. The DSoK backed up the hill and were content to pick off Stingers and stay out of Torks threat range from the hill on the left (hoping to entice him so that they could crash down on him). Nessing recouped and killed 2 Stingers with his extra turn on OM#3. The 4 remaining Stingers retreated to the hill on the right. 4 Stingers and 1 DSoK died this round.

    Rd 4. Tork went to the left hill after the DSoK. Trap sprung. The 3 DSoK charged down and started their melee double attack on Tork . . . they did manage 4 wounds (2 healed by snacks), but they ultimately fell with Tork attacks - Tork missed on 3 Trample Stomp attempts. Rounds end, the last 3 DSoK, 1 Grub, and 1 Stinger died. 2 wounds were on Tork.

    Rd 5. Ness took out the last Stinger after taking a wound from that Stinger. Ness got a wound on Tork from range as the two moved to do battle in the Team Marro start zone. Nessing did get a shot in on Isamu - who vanished. It is Tork and Isamu v. Nessing.

    Rd 6. Nessing took out Tork with his double turn and later finished off Isamu with his special.

    Team DSoK had 63 points left. The 330-pt DSoK killed/wounded a total of 318 points.

    Final Thoughts: 1-1 on the day for the DSoK against a very good army (I dropped two squads of grubs for another squad of stingers compared to previous tests). Zeta was a waste of points and Nessing was decent in the second game. Against this A- team, the DSoK did OK. I wonder how they would do with Raelin and Rats? The DSoK really are a fun squad - so many options, so many stategies. To pull them back in the second game was hard for me to do, but they ended up winning. In the two battles, 660 points worth of DSoK killed 608 total points of Team Marro. Fairly close. Maybe they are 105 points without their special powers against Demons/Undead? Another option is to make their double attack a Special Attack - which would not include the bonuses for height and glyphs . . . I could see this dropping their points by at least 10. Dropping the move from 6 to 5 would also drop their points, but they are really fun at move of 6. Again, the only other ranged common squad with a move of 6 are the Arrow Gruts. But, then we also need to consider how good they are against Demons/Undead at 110 points? Next play test - probably tomorrow. Jacob and I have SuperHeroes to battle through tonight.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:27 am

    OK, yet another play test to report. I hope these provide good information. This one was a blast! I was getting pretty excited . . . and I was playing myself!

    NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Demon Stalkers of Kresknik (using the stats in the revised OP).

    THEME TEST: PASS!

    FUN TEST: PASS!

    FUN OPPOSITION TEST: PASS!

    USAGE TEST: PASS - but the affect on demons/undead need to be factored in the points. For the record, Cyprien had 8 bonuses reduced and the Skeletons of A had 14 bonuses reduced. I did not allow the -2 roll on the 20-sider for Necromancy to occur, because the Skeleton would be off the board when it is destroyed . . . so the DSoK couldn't see it to affect the roll. Five of the affects on Cyprien were for his chilling touch, but only 1 made a difference in the outcome . . . but it could have made a difference in the game - it was that close. Nearly all of the other bonuses negated where for Height and Jungle Tree +1 defenses for Cyp and the Skeletons. Only 3 were for attacking with height negations (the slow Skelies just can't move that fast to get height).

    STRATEGY TEST: PASS!

    BONDING TEST: PASS.

    SYNERGIES TEST: PASS. Another ideal to bring down the points might be to make their first attack a special attack which wouldn't be modified by height/glyphs. So, they would get a 3 max attack on their first one with an adjacent figure, and then either a 2 or 3 with height on their second attack which would be their normal attack. I'm just thinking here.

    POWER CHECK: INCONCLUSIVE. Although the points need to be adjusted up in my opinion. And then we still need to test the affect of the power negation against other non-undead/demon figures if it's decided we want to pursue that route.

    DRAFTING TEST: PASS - I would take these guys any day in a draft even at 130 points against demons/undead and hope we are playing a 520 point battle. They are super fun! At 130 against non-demons/undead . . . questionable. Maybe my opinion would be to average it - 105/110 opinion in my previous reports and 130+ against demons/undead = 120?

    MIRROR TEST: PASS

    ARMY TEST 1

    Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Very adequate. 120 - see thoughts above and in my final thoughts. The 330 point DSoK killed/wounded 704 points worth of undead . . . but how do you really calculate points for the Skeletons when you have to kill them over and over again? OK, maybe it is more realistic to say that you only get full points when the Skeletons are out of the game for good, so that would be 415 points.

    Map: Sirocco

    Units:

    Army 1: Demon Stalkers of Kresnik x3, Van Nessing, James Murphy = 510 points.

    VS

    Army 2: Skeletons of Annellintia x3, Cyprien, Sonya = 510 points (a solid B+ army, based on power rankings).

    BATTLE 1

    Rd 1. Bad strategy for the good guys. Murphy climbed to height for later in the game. Van Nessing charged the middle trying to take out two Skeletons but failed. The Skelies took off OM#3 from the DSoK with Intercept Order glyph . . . AND . . . rolled 6/8 skulls in two attacks on Nessing, who only rolled 1/10 in defense. Nessing dead and the good guys are down 105 points out of the shoot.

    From here until round 7 . . . all markers for the good guys are on DSoK. And for the bad guys, it was all Skelies until round 5.

    Rd 2.  In this round the Skeletons were overwhelmed by the DSoK. 7 Skelies dead to only 1 DSoK, but it didn't feel as good, because 5 of the 7 necromancied.

    Rd 3. The Skelies killed off 2 DSoK. 6 Skelies died, but 3 necromancied. But, this war of attrition, the DSoK were able to take the left hill, the center of the map, and only one Skeleton remainded on the right hill.

    Rd 4. The Skelies put a hurting on the DSoK, killing 3. Yes, 6 Skelies died, but 4 necromancied. The 20-sider was hot for the bad guys. The DSoK conquered height on both hills and were even able to take a few pot shots on Cyprien in the start zone for 4 wounds before the fellow had a chance to play. Too bad he was standing by a jungle tree that couldn't help him out.

    Rd 5. Here comes Cyprien in an effort to heal . . . and things got intense. Head to head with one DSoK on the right hill - no wounds on either. But, the last Skeleton falls on the right hill (FINALLY!). Cyprien does a slight shuffle, and kills two DSoK with the Chill and an attack, two live drains for two wounds removed. The last DSok sneaks in the back door but fails to wound Sonya. Cyp swoops down to save her, but misses on CT and the attack. The DSoK rolls 5/5 shields in his two attacks on Cyprien . . . so sad for the good guys.

    Rd 6. Cyprien - Chill and Attack fail on DSoK. DSoK places two wounds on Cyp in two attacks.
    Cyp kills the last DSoK, and heals back down to 3 wounds . . . and then Cyprien moves to within striking distance of James Murphy, who promptly shoots from 7 away with a 2 skull roll . . . Cyp rolls 1/6 in defense (shadow and tree bonuses). Cyp has 4 wounds.

    Rd 7. Markers on Cyprien and Murphy. Cyp first - one wound on Murph with the Chill. Murph fails to whip Cyp, shotguns him with 2/3 skulls . . . AND, Cyp whiffs . . . dies, if undead can die . . . he is off the board and Sonya takes two wounds. Murphy uses his next two markers to move across the board toward Sonya.

    Rd 8. Sonya wins initiative and goes on the offensive - placing 1 wound on Murph. Murph responds with a successful whip and a 3/3 skull shot gun blast. GOOD GUYS WIN!

    Final Thoughts: Team DSoK won with 45 points left. They were hampered early losing the 105-point Van Nessing out of the shoot. The Skeletons are so annoying . . . they just keep coming back and back, maybe that is why they are a 105 squad. Yes - the negation of the undead did really affect this game, and it most certainly would have gone the other way with out all of the negations. But, the Skeletons were not affected nearly as much as the Death Knights and Skull Demons in the other match-up. Still, against demons/undead, I would value the DSoK at 130+ points. Maybe a good middle point is 120 points. The move of 6 enabled me to get in about 15 extra attacks as opposed if they were move of 5. But, I'm in love with their move of 6 now that I've played them so many times . . . I would be happy to keep them at Move 6, but that is a big point bump. As noted earlier, the only other ranged common squad with move of 6 is the Arrow Gruts. At 120 points, does one squad of DSoK = 2 squads of Zombies/Greenscales/DeathKnights/Harquebus? YES! 2 squads of Stingers/Blastatrons? Hmm . . . tough call for me, so maybe that would be about right. The 120 points reflect my opinion without testing for the other option of negating Zelrig and other non-demon/undead special powers.

    Oh, one last note. I now have a man-crush on James Murphy and his whip.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:24 am

    How about Shadow Slayers of Kresnik for a name change.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:42 am

    Derek S wrote:How about Shadow Slayers of Kresnik for a name change.  
    Slayers of Kresnik would be cool too.

    "Slayer" has a nice ring to it : )
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:03 am

    I like the name change. Demon Stalkers turned into Death Stalkers in my mind too many times.

    Derek and I got a few matches in with these guys and I think he is pretty content with where they stand . . . but at 120 points.

    Four games v. Raelin, Q9, Rats, Marro Warriors . . . The Slayers managed to go 1-3.

    Games v. Undead (Death Knights, Zombies, Vampires) . . . The Slayers did well, but only one was a blowout. In fact Morgoloth managed to hang on for a win against the Slayers.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:15 am

    Yeah, I think these guys are real close. I was really surprised they didn't do better against the demon/undead armies- one game I even misplayed the Zombie Hulks thinking they could only bond with each other and not the ZoM. I still might be a little nervous at 120 points if they get the attack +1 glyph, so 120 is the minimum, 130 is high I think, 125 or 120 is about right with 120 closer I think.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:07 pm

    Per Kai's suggestion . . . Slayers of Kresnik instead of Shadow Slayers of Kresnik? I like both. In my mind, when I think of shadows I think of Drow, which these guys have no bonus over.

    Kresnik, as reported in Van Nessing's bio, kind of hints to the battle against demons/undead. I guess I like the simplicity of Slayers of Kresnik.

    Derek, do you want more play tests or tweaking with this unit? Or are ready to move to final editing?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:45 am

    Either Kresnik Slayers or Slayers Kresnik or shadow slayers of Kresnik (slayers of Kresnik makes me think they are slaying Kresnik). I could still use a few playtests to feel real comfortable with points and powers before moving to final editing.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:12 am

    OK, I will let you decide on the name . . . Shadow Slayers of Kresnik works for me.

    I will be happy to give them some more play tests. Any particular match-ups you want to see?

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

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