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    W2 Anubian Alpha - released

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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:56 pm

    We loved the mechanics. 60 points and life of 4 sounds good, or maybe 50 points and keep it at a life of 3.

    In the last battle, with one less Alpha, it would have been very close I think
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:07 pm

    Derek and I ran 5 playtests with the Anubian Alphas late Saturday night/Sunday morning. Sadly, I left the pages of notes I wrote during the battles at Derek's. So, I will just have to recap and give our suggestions.

    We did 4 battles with the Anubian Wolves (AWx3, Khosumet, AAx3 = 480 pts) vs various mixes of the 4th Mass Line builds (4thx3, and mixes of Drake, Thorgrim, Finn, Ulfred, Sammy Brown, Eldgrim). The Anubians trounced the 4th between 210 and 260 points in three of the battles. The 4th did pull out a victory in one battle.

    We did 1 battle with a Wolves of Badru (WoBx3, Werewolf Lord, AA x2 = 540) against a 4th build that included 4 squads of bluecoats. The wolf army won by over 200 points.

    Derek and I both agree that the Anubian Alpha is probably one of the best units put forth. We love the mechanics, the theme, the sculpt, and the benefit to the Utgarian wolf squads. It is one of my favorites - great design! But we think it is still overpowered a bit. Derek and I suggest that the points be bumped to 65 and life dropped back down to 3.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:20 pm

    Thanks for the feedback! I love the mechanic too, and hope you guys enjoyed testing them out.

    65 points and 3-life seems fair. If the Alpha would be an A+ at that price point, we could bump to 70 or 75. I don't want to make our customs too broken : P

    I liked the idea of an Uncommon Hero custom (especially since this figure wasn't too expensive) but if the design would be better as a Unique Hero - we could go that way as well.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:34 pm

    I love that the are uncommon. Running with 2 or 3 really is the way to go, in my opinion. I think dropping their life back down to 3 and bumping their points to 65 may do the trick - but we can do more play testing. I have done 9 play tests with these guys with various point/life combos and they have trounced in all but one. I think we are getting closer - the Alpha may end up at 70 points, but not much more than that. He does seem to be worth more than 1 squad of Anubians, but that is fine because it balances them out.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:56 pm

    What if we changed the Alpha's basic Stat values to Move 6, Attack 1, Defense 1 and we made a note in Shapeshift that the Anubian Alpha has the Attack & Defense of their Host figure? This way - the Alpha with Anubian Wolves won't average a 6 attack. It makes the Alpha a little weaker.

    The attack of 6 with an average Unleash Fury roll is pretty awesome. It is one better than the Ice-Troll Berserker (Attack 5, Defense 2), who is also Uncommon but 85 points. Personally the Ice-Troll is a little over-priced for my taste (but he also bonds with Arrow Gruts) and is Power Ranked at B.


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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:30 pm

    Sounds like a rethinking here. I really like were he is at, but . . .

    What if we went way off the chart and did his move, attack, and defense all at ? (seriously, put a ? in the slots on the card, but have the power mirror the squad he has shape-shifted into). Kept his life at 3. I could see his points drop to 40 or so with this.

    Very intriguing . . . I really thought we were close, but this could possibly make the figure even better. I don't know.

    I really love this process of give-and-take on figures. I know that Torver and the Fusiliers wouldn't be half of what they are now without the immense input and tons of play-testing from everyone. Thanks guys!
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:41 pm

    We can certainly keep the Alpha were he is now ... just trying to figure out what makes them so dominant in the play-testing.

    Is it the potential 6 attack of the Alpha (which is very high for his points)?
    Is it the "surprise! you didn't really destroy that Wolf" function of Shapeshift?

    Or maybe a combo of both.

    I'm comfortable at 3-Life, and 65-points.



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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:48 pm

    The potential is much more than a 6 attack. The potential is 11+ attack. The average attack would probably be a 6+ because the Alpha is usually put into play when he has height.

    I think the biggest benefit is that the Alpha takes the place of a dead Wolf. So, that wolf that got into my army is now replaced by one that has 3 or 4 times the life and a potentially huge attack that can take out the best of my best heroes in one shot with the possibility of an 11 attack. It is a domino effect. Now that I have to focus all of my attacks on killing that one Alpha, the other two wolves get free reign - free from attacks, free to charge in, free to get height, free to be replaced by another Alpha. It is not so much the stats on the Alpha that make the army so strong, it is really that you get to pick and choose when to bring the Alpha in, which is at the most optimal spot (I'm attacking next and I have height already, etc.). And an attack of 7-11 is fairly common when Khosumet and height are in play.

    I want to reiterate that this is one of the best designs that we've come up with. I'm very open to having his stats mirror the move, defense, and attack of the host. I mentioned that I thought we were really close on this figure only because I've spent so much time play testing that I think with a major change to the stats we will have to do much more play testing to get the points right. I was just being lazy.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:13 pm

    Cool, then let's keep what we've done so far and get to Final editing : )

    --
    12/30:

    HEROSCAPE CUSTOM STATS
    Unit Name: Anubian Alpha

    General: Utgar
    Species: Hybrid
    Type: Uncommon Hero
    Class: Hunter
    Personality: Tormented
    Size: Medium 5

    Points: 65

    Stats
    Life:       3
    Move:     6
    Range:    1
    Attack:    3
    Defense:  3

    Special Powers
    INFECTED HOST
    Anubian Alphas do not begin the game on the battlefield.  They must be placed on the battlefield using the Shapeshift special power.  

    SHAPESHIFT
    After a common small or medium Wolf you control is destroyed by an opponent, you may place that Wolf on this army card.  For this game the Wolf figure placed on this card is the Host for this Anubian Alpha.  Place this Anubian Alpha on the space the Host figure previously occupied.  This Anubian Alpha may use the Special Powers of the Host Wolf figure as if they were that unit.

    PACK ALPHA
    Instead of taking a turn with a full squad of this Anubian Alpha's Host, you may activate, move, and attack with one Anubian Alpha as one member of that squad.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:58 pm

    I kind of liked the ? Idea for his stats. You could go where ? = the host powers +1. Maybe have the question mark for only his attack, and the rest could be locked in. If don't want to go this route I would like to see a few more playtests with the new stats before moving to final editing.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:18 pm

    So, are these guys staying with the stats below or are there still some thoughts on change?

    HEROSCAPE CUSTOM STATS
    Unit Name: Anubian Alpha

    General: Utgar
    Species: Hybrid
    Type: Uncommon Hero
    Class: Hunter
    Personality: Tormented
    Size: Medium 5

    Points: 65

    Stats
    Life: 3
    Move: 6
    Range: 1
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 3

    Special Powers
    INFECTED HOST
    Anubian Alphas do not begin the game on the battlefield. They must be placed on the battlefield using the Shapeshift special power.

    SHAPESHIFT
    After a common small or medium Wolf you control is destroyed by an opponent, you may place that Wolf on this army card. For this game the Wolf figure placed on this card is the Host for this Anubian Alpha. Place this Anubian Alpha on the space the Host figure previously occupied. This Anubian Alpha may use the Special Powers of the Host Wolf figure as if they were that unit.

    PACK ALPHA
    Instead of taking a turn with a full squad of this Anubian Alpha's Host, you may activate, move, and attack with one Anubian Alpha as one member of that squad.

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:10 pm

    Nomad wrote:I love that the are uncommon. Running with 2 or 3 really is the way to go, in my opinion. I think dropping their life back down to 3 and bumping their points to 65 may do the trick - but we can do more play testing. I have done 9 play tests with these guys with various point/life combos and they have trounced in all but one. I think we are getting closer - the Alpha may end up at 70 points, but not much more than that. He does seem to be worth more than 1 squad of Anubians, but that is fine because it balances them out.

    Yes, based on this feedback, I think the 12/30 stats are the way to go. I wouldn't mind a bump in Defense to 4 but from your playtests - these guys seemed pretty powerful.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:03 pm

    A bump to 4 on defense would make them more powerful than when their life was 4, in my opinion. We could do this, but I think it would bump their points up a fair amount.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:13 pm

    Nomad wrote:A bump to 4 on defense would make them more powerful than when their life was 4, in my opinion. We could do this, but I think it would bump their points up a fair amount.

    No problem we can keep them at 3L/1R/6M/3A/3D and 65 points.

    Thanks for getting in all of those play test games.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Derek S on Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:11 am

    C3V PUBLIC PLAY TEST FEEDBACK COMPREHENSIVE-FORM
    C3V Public Playtest Form

    NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Anubian Alpha

    THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects.

    Infected Host, Shapeshift, and Pack alpa are all very thematic.  The only problem is the limitation to the armies they can be played in, and potentially what small and medium wolf commons that might be created- although can't see the future so no issue there.

    FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play?

    the Alphas have proved fun time and again.

    FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying?

    I still think throwing down a potential of 11 attack, usually 6, sometimes 3 is too much for a 65 pt character with other figures being activated- realizing the other figures are activating the Alpha's.

    USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable?

    Yes.

    STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game?

    Very much so, when to bring them in is awesome.  Great tactics and strategy provided.

    BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately?  

    Not that I see

    SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak?

    The only synergies I see are Moon Frenzy and Anubian Wolves, Wolves of Badru, and Varkaanian Blade Dancers and taking a turn as part of those squads.

    POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including released C3V and SoV units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? Each power should define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and what conditions (if any) apply.

    Their base attack of 3 and the Anubian Wolves roll make me nervous against heroes.  Most won't stand a chance to live 1 attack on a good or decent 20-sided roll.  

    DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting?

    Very much so in the Badru and Anubian armies.  I haven't seen a report on them with the Blade Dancers.

    MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game?

    Not that I see.

    ARMY TEST 1

    Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary.

    They performed decently.  Had attacks of 7,7,6 when attacking with height.  7,4 when even.  11, 5 when attacking uphill.  1 died to a base attack of 3 the 1st time attacked by a Knight.  1 was taken out by Allistar (w/ Gilbert bonus after surviving several attacks from Knights.  1  was probably attacked 10 times before falling to Orrick.  I think they are closer to 70 pts than 65 after all the games I have played with them.

    Map: [Stroll in the Park- 1 RotV, 2 Ticalla Jungle]
    Units: Army 1: [Finn (80), Allister (110), Orrick (50), Gilbert (105), KoW (240) for 585] VS Army 2: [Werewolf Lord (140), Anubian Alphas X3 (195), Anubian Wolves X3 (225) for 560]

    Gilbert got the Talisman of Defense, the KoW surged early as Gilbert rolled 3,4,4 on his 1st 3 rolls for Jandar's Dispatch.  Knights got attack +1 and Initiative glyphs in the 1st round.  The Wolves in the 2nd round were able to take the initiative glyph due to an Alpha doing his hosting.  They also got the Knights of the attack +1 glyph thanks to a 2nd Alpha.  In the 3rd round they got the attack glyph, lycanthroped Gilbert which stalled the beating they were taking.  The Anubian Wolves with the Alpha replacements eventually held out just their side of the middle of the board before the last wave of 5 knights, finn, and Allister made it to them.  The Anubian that had the attack glyph left to pick off a couple of Knights, but the Knights and Allister put a couple of wounds on the Werewolf Lord and killed all but 1 Anubian wolf.  Finn and a Knight took back initiative killing the 2nd Alpha.  Werewolf Lord Lycanthroped Allister, got a couple of leaving engagement attacks on Gilbert to no avail before him and the lone Anubian Wolf died to 2 knights.  The last alpha moved to the start zone and but 2 wounds on Orrick meanwhile.  Orrick survived 1 whole round of attacks as did the Alpha trading blows before the 2 Knights closed the gap, 1 of them falling to the Alpha.  The last alpha falls to the last Knight to end the game.  Final tally left for the Knight team:  Orrick with 1 life, 1 KoW, 1 life left for Allister and 2 left on Gilbert for about 88 2/3 pts left.

    Final Thoughts

    The Alphas rolled 1 out 7 and 1 out of 6 in crucial spots or the still might have won.  I forgot to put a Lycanthrope marker on Allister the 1st time the Lord wounded him although I don't think it mattered.  The Lord Moon Frenzied with the Alpha 3 times and with Gilbert twice.  Gilbert and his +1 defense kept him alive.

    I think it is too bad the only time an Alpha can be played is if you have a common wolf squad.  I think we could come up with some wording for Infected Host that would allow them to start the game on the board without changing anything.  Like If this Anubian Alpha doesn't begin the game on the battlefield, you may place them on the battlefield using the shapeshift power.  This could allow them to be used as filler or a hybrid figure for the Werewolf to use without changing their cost or theme.  I still think these guys are closer to 70 pts than 65 from all the playtesting I have done with them.  When they move to final editing I think we can language some of their powers a smidge better.  These guys are awesome, great design. I would still like to see them playtested with the Blade Dancers.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:56 pm

    Thanks for the report. Sounds like they lost two battles in one day. The Anubians lost to Omnicron in our MLK tournament yesterday. These are the first times I have seen/heard them lose.

    I never that about the Bladedancers. Defensive Vault and a life of three might be pretty impressive. More testing to be done.

    Kai, what do you think about enabling the Alpha to start the game on the map as another option - he just wouldn't get any of the powers listed on a squads card?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:02 am

    RE: Blade Dancers -
    Yes, the Blade Dancers are Medium Figures - while the new Wolfen Uniques are large. Since they are Medium Common Wolves, they can work with Anubian Alphas. I have not play-tested that option yet .. probably because the Anubian Wolves are that much better. I don't think the Alpha is broken with Blade Dancers (actually weaker since the 'Dancers have a base attack 4 and the Alpha is a 3/3.

    RE: Option to start on the battlefield -
    I think a key power - and part of what is powerful - is that you destroy a Wolf figure but then suddenly an Alpha rises up instead. That is a key strategy to the Alpha's strength. It is an interesting idea. It gives the Werewolf Lord a 3L/3A/3D 'Hybrid' to Moon Frenzy with .. but I don't know if I would use 65+ points for him with basic stats. Would you want 1-2 Alphas to go with the Werewolf Lord or maybe 1-2 squads of Wolves of Badru that could bond with the WL?

    RE: Win-Loss record -
    The Anubian Wolves are a powerhouse melee unit and they have a great chance to win in melee vs melee battles. But the Alphas + Wolves were *dominated* by the Omnicrons. All range seems the best against the Wolves (just as it would be with all range versus all melee).

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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:07 pm

    Here's a weird idea.

    What do you think about making 3 versions of the Anubian Alpha Army card .. sort of like the multiple versions of the Skull Demons? We could have one card for Anubian Wolves, one for Wolves of Badru, and one for Blade Dancers.

    We could then have (slightly) different stats based on which figure is the "Host" for the Alpha? They all have 3 Life, 6 Move, 1 Range

    Anubian Alpha
    2 Attack, 4 Defense (so 1 more attack than a normal Anubian Wolf)

    Alpha of Badru
    4 Attack, 3 Defense (so 1 more attack than a Wolf of Badru)

    Varkaanan Alpha
    5 Attack, 3 Defense (again, 1 more attack than the Blade Dancer)

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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:23 pm

    Rather than 3 different cards this idea Damon had earlier

    What if we went way off the chart and did his move, attack, and defense all at ? (seriously, put a ? in the slots on the card, but have the power mirror the squad he has shape-shifted into). Kept his life at 3. I could see his points drop to 40 or so with this.

    would be cleaner. In the power you just state his base attack is 1 more than the Host figure. Would definitely make him easier to point cost. I would prefer to keep his defense 3 though (after all the playtests with him I think 4 defense 2 attack would make him even better than 3 defense 3 attack in the Anubian Army). Good idea.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:48 pm

    worth considering . . .
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:20 pm

    Ran a test over the weekend with the Wolfen ladies and their defensive vault. The test was KoW x3, Gilbert, Thorgrim, Tyrian (minus 1 Knight) vs. Wolfs x 3, Anubian Alpha x3, and Ellassar. Map was a small 1 BotU, 2 Tundra. Defense +1 glyph was held by the Knights for most of the game, while the Wolves held the Initiative glyph. Gilbert had the attack +1 treasure glyph until he fell, which an Anubian eventually scooped up. Part way through the game I thought the Wolf's were going to trounce, but the Knights ability to hold the defensive glyph throughout the game and some strong defensive rolling from Piper allowed the Knights to hang in there and pull out a close 1. She ended up with a 2 life Thorgrimm, 2 life Tyrian, and 2 Knights left. The Alpha's provided a real strong showing here. The added Melee defense dice (often rolling 6 defense), vault made them tough to go down with 3 life, coupled with the attack +1 glyph made the one alpha chew through the Knights after Gilbert fell a few rounds into the game. Tyrian's range and double attack proved to be only way 2 of the 3 Alpha's could go down. If the ? mark for the attack isn't considered, could see these guys moving to final editing at 70 pts, which I still think keeps them at an A/A+ figure.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:53 am

    Kai, if you could put their current stats in the OP I will do their synergies book, I don't think there will be much change here, but I don't want to take the time for something that is different.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:36 pm

    Sure.

    Posted the last stats that I had ... the Alpha is at 65 points in those numbers. Did we decide to bump to 70?
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Nomad on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:38 pm

    I'm good with the bump to 70.

    The Alpha is really good.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Anubian Alpha - released

    Post  Derek S on Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:34 am

    I concur with the 70pt cost.

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