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    W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:22 pm

    I kind do agree with your comparison to the Dreadguls, so I am going to start with their points there, which is 65 I believe.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:30 pm

    Here is another possible Pirate figure from the Heroclix line:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mage-Knight-Heroclix-Resurrection-004-Xandressan-Windsman-Common-/331061230524?pt=Games_US&hash=item4d14c97bbc
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:35 pm

    The OP is updated. Changed the personality from plundering to aggressive. Not sure I like it any better, suggestions welcome. Do we want anymore discussion in the brainstorming phase before moving these guys to playtesting? I still kind of liked the pirates being able to carry and drop a treasure glyph.

    That is a good figure Kai.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:19 pm

    "Marauding" as the personality?

    During play testing, we can figure out if the mechanics of Plunder works OK or if we need to tweak it. I'm good with moving them to play testing.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:49 pm

    I like Maurading.  Also, should these guys be Utgar or Vyadar?

    Just ran a playtest with the Pirates x4 (260), Suds (100), Evar (110), Martial (70) vs DeathWalker 8000, Zettian Infrantry x3, Gammacron, and Deathcommander on a Walk in the Park (RoTV, 2 Jungle)

    Gammacron headed out to the center of the map and gathered a treasure glyph (eventually getting swiped by the Pirates).  Managed a AMS strike on Evar and killing 1 Pirate before falling to the Pirates.  The Pirates looted an Unique attack glyph away from the Infantry which allowed Suds to one kill Deathcommander and take out some Infantry with no resistance.  Suds blocked an attack from DW, an explosives round attack from Deathcommander and 2 little attacks from the Infantry with one wound.  (Played at much higher than his 100 pt price tag.)  The Pirates got DW with a 3 skull roll and mopped up the rest of the Infantry (Martial did get one).  Lost 5 Pirates, Evar, 1 wound on Suds for a convincing victory.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:23 pm

    I could see Manauvi (the Wolfen Reckless hero) in the Pirate army instead of Evar.  Since Frost Rage requires a numbered OM to be revealed in order to reveal the X - I think it holds Evar back a little.

    And then when Manauvi is destroyed you can give Martial La Hire +2 Move Smile

    http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=49158
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:26 am

    Playtest- Pirates x4, Suds, Evar, Martial= 540 vs Sacred Bandx3, Parmenio, Marcus, Arashara=540

    Pirates Looted the +8 initiative glyph from the band but weren't able to hold-no one got it until the last round, (late in the game they looted the +1 attack but only had 4 Pirates and Suds at that point). They did kill 6 sacred and put 3 wounds on Marcus. Martial took out 2 Sacred before being sand shifted into a helpless situation(1 kill came after the surrounding). Suds rolled terribly on his attacks. He had 5 attacks rolling 5 + dice (3 with 8 die) only managing to 1 wound Arashara and kill 2 Sacred.
    I thought the Pirates were going to win as they were gaining the middle of the board, but only once (in the whole game) were the Pirates able to defend an attack so their advantage quickly disappeared. Shifting Sands took out Martial and Suds otherwise the Pirates might have still made a game of it.

    The dice were so poor I don't know how telling this was. Sacred band had 2 left, 3 life Marcus, full life Parmenio, and a 1 wounded Arashara were left.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Nomad on Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:59 pm

    I hate those inconclusive play-tests! When the dice aren't right do you just ignore it?

    Did Evar or La Hire do anything at all? Sounds like Arashara is worth the points (all 200?).

    So - what general are the Pirates tending towards?

    Einar - they are historical, but not really part of any Empire, unless they are sanctioned by North African Islam Empire of the 1500s. Hmmm?
    Vydar - bonds with Evar and Pirates do have some good/bad traits depending on how you look at them. Vydar was heading towards the bad side. But do they fit? Heck, the Warmongers are Vydar.
    Valkrill - kind of chaotic units because they can cause chaos . . .

    Aquilla, Jandar, Ullar, Utgar - I just don't see it.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:41 pm

    We got a play test in with the Pirates yesterday.

    The Loot and Plunder power didn't come into play.

    The pirates ran with Manauvi, Suds, and La Hire as their heroes.

    I suggest dropping their points to 60 and going with either Utgar or Valkrill as the general. More play testing is needed to see if the Loot and Plunder power is powerful or not.

    The Reckless/Pirate faction is nice. I really like the way they can draw figures from other generals to be part of their band of marauding pirates - kind of like how the old pirates used to be (each pirate was in it for personal gain - for hire or to split the booty).
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:19 pm

    I think I might like to go with Barbary Corsairs for their name as that is the more historical reference. Thanks for the playtest. If they are looking like 55 to 60 points without a power coming in to play, potentially a game changer, I am not so sure 65 isn't appropriate. We can drop them to 60 for now, but more playtests are surely in order.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:10 am

    OP updated to Barbary Corsairs and dropped to 60 points. Some changes might be made to fit the historical accuracy of the Barbary Corsairs (although what is there is fitting), but I think we can do better. Any thoughts?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:01 pm

    I like the idea of pirates but I am wondering what makes this Army Card stand out.  I think it is the "Treasure/Glyph" aspect - which might not always come into play - so I was wondering what folks thought about a different direction.

    What is these Pirates are on Valhalla - and were recruited by Valkrill or Utgar to steal the energy from glyphs to be utilized somewhere else?  I know that I've previously stated that messing with glyphs is a bad thing .. but what about something like:

    SYPHON MYSTICAL ENERGY
    If a Pirates of the Barbary Coast starts the turn on a power glyph add one Energy marker to this card.  After moving, if a Pirate of the Barbary Coast is on a space with a treasure glyph they may remove that treasure glyph from the game to add 3 Energy markers to this army card.

    MYSTIC BOLT SPECIAL ATTACK
    Range: 4  Attack: 4
    Remove one Energy marker from this card to use Mystic Bolt Special Attack.  Only one Pirate of the Barbary Coast that was activated but did not move or attack normally may attack with Mystic Bolt Special Attack.

    This is basically the same power as the MicroCorp Troopers from c3v but with a restriction that you have to steal energy from glyphs .. so its not very good and probably doesn't increase their points.


    And these don't have to be the powers ... but maybe the idea of pulling magically energy from Glyphs and turning it into 'markers' could work. As to what the markers actually do - that could be anything.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:59 pm

    I was hoping to catch more of the historical accuracy than fantasy, but those are some interesting thoughts that maybe could be pulled out on a different design. I was thinking maybe something along the lines of captives held for slavery, converted to piracy (and Muslim), or held for ransom. So maybe a power that reflects this theme or another from the Barbary Corsairs. It might be something like rolling the 20- sider after they destroy a figure to see if they are destroyed, replaced by a previously destroyed Corsair, or the opponent may choose to reveal an order marker and keep the figure from being destroyed or not reveal the marker and the figure is destroyed.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:46 am

    Derek S wrote:I was hoping to catch more of the historical accuracy than fantasy, but those are some interesting thoughts that maybe could be pulled out on a different design.  I was thinking maybe something along the lines of captives held for slavery, converted to piracy (and Muslim), or held for ransom.  So maybe a power that reflects this theme or another from the Barbary Corsairs.  It might be something like rolling the 20- sider after they destroy a figure to see if they are destroyed, replaced by a previously destroyed Corsair, or the opponent may choose to reveal an order marker and keep the figure from being destroyed or not reveal the marker and the figure is destroyed.

    Totally cool ... historical works well.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:32 am

    Was thinking of a couple possible changes.
    Plunder

    After moving and before attacking, if at least 2 Barbary Corsairs are adjacent to a figure occupying a glyph space or a figure carrying a glyph, you may switch placement of one of the adjacent Corsairs and the figure occupying the glyph space or carrying the glyph. If a Barbary Corsair switches place with a figure carrying a glyph, you may place that glyph on any empty space within 3 spaces of the Corsair.

    to

    Plunder

    After moving and before attacking, if a Barbary Corsair is adjacent to a figure occupying a glyph you may place that glyph on the space the Corsair occupies. If a Barbary Corsair is ends if movement adjacent to a figure carrying a glyph, you may place that glyph on any empty space within 3 spaces of the Corsair.

    CONVERT OR PAY

    When a figure attacked by a Barbary Corsair receives enough wounds to be destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-14 destroy the defending figure. On a roll of 15-17 the defending figure may reveal an order marker and ignore any wounds received. On a roll of 18 or higher replace the destroyed figure with a previously destroyed Barbary Corsair if possible.

    Not sure if I really like the potential change. I really wanted to keep the Pirates at 2 powers. Could drop the Plunder power and leave it for Pirates representing Providence Island. Or could leave them alone.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:00 pm

    PLUNDER

    After moving and before attacking, if a Barbary Corsair is adjacent to a figure occupying a glyph you may place that glyph on the space the Corsair occupies. If a Barbary Corsair is ends if movement adjacent to a figure carrying a glyph, you may place that glyph on any empty space within 3 spaces of the Corsair.



    You should probably add something about a Treasure or Glyph only being moved once per turn (like the Warforged squad can only Tactically Switch a figure once).
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Nomad on Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:07 pm

    Derek wrote:CONVERT OR PAY

    When a figure attacked by a Barbary Corsair receives enough wounds to be destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-14 destroy the defending figure. On a roll of 15-17 the defending figure may reveal an order marker and ignore any wounds received. On a roll of 18 or higher replace the destroyed figure with a previously destroyed Barbary Corsair if possible.

    Awesome sounding power. I suggest changing to 'may' roll the 20-sider . . . because it could back-fire as often as benefit (wait, that is only if they have an order marker and want to be saved). Very intriguing. I'm not sure if pirates are the best to have this power. I don't see them as magical in the historical sense . . . I guess I kind of liked them without adding in mystical stuff. I would definitely use this power with some squad. Great thinking. I could be persuaded to use it with these guys, so I'm not saying "no, don't like it." It is just a little different than how I envisioned them.

    Second thoughts . . . it doesn't have to be mystical or magical at all (palm hit forehead). So, the pirates are cutting a throat - they give the figure a choice . . .

    Got it. I would change the name to "ONE OF US, OR DIE". This sounds pretty awesome the more I think about. I will have to do some thinking about numbers and scenarios, etc. Wow, I don't know how you come up with this stuff - great job.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:15 pm

    yeah, it is a ransom paid to keep the figure alive, the figure converts, or the figure becomes a slave/dies-(didn't want to touch slavery). Maybe the power could just be Ransom?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:33 pm

    PAY, JOIN, OR DIE

    When a figure attacked by a Barbary Corsair receives enough wounds to be destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-14 destroy the defending figure. On a roll of 15-17 the defending figure may reveal an order marker and ignore any wounds received. On a roll of 18 or higher replace the destroyed figure with a previously destroyed Barbary Corsair if possible.

    Should the roll of 15-17 work for Commons as well as uniques?

    Also, what do you guys think about dropping the Reckless Hero bonding part? I really like it but see it more fitting for the treasure island/providence island pirates. If we find appropriate miniatures for that time line I would like to use the bonding power there.

    I think the plunder power could work for either time line although a little more fitting for the 1700 pirates. So, I don't know if we all really want to keep both powers.

    So I see a couple of options here.
    1- leave the powers with Plunder and Relentless hero bonding
    2- go with plunder and Join/pay/die
    3- go with join/pay/die by itself
    4- have join/pay/die and Relentless hero bonding
    5- have join/pay/die and a different bonding option
    6- or something else.

    I am leaning towards 5.

    Kai wrote:PLUNDER

    After moving and before attacking, if a Barbary Corsair is adjacent to a figure occupying a glyph you may place that glyph on the space the Corsair occupies. If a Barbary Corsair is ends if movement adjacent to a figure carrying a glyph, you may place that glyph on any empty space within 3 spaces of the Corsair.

    You should probably add something about a Treasure or Glyph only being moved once per turn (like the Warforged squad can only Tactically Switch a figure once).

    Yes, maybe it should state engaged instead of adjacent.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Nomad on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:58 pm

    Here are my opinions:

    I really like the Reckless Hero Bonding. I'm not sure why we would remove it. I'm not sure that we would be creating more pirate common squads. If more pirates come available, we could make unique squads, heroes, common heroes, or if we do create more common squads I'm sure that we can come up with more cool powers.


    PLUNDER
    After moving and before attacking, if at least 2 Barbary Corsairs are engaged with a figure occupying a glyph you may place that glyph on a space that one of the Barbary Corsairs occupies. If at least 2 Barbary Corsairs end their movement engaged with a figure carrying a glyph, you may place that glyph on any empty space adjacent to one of the Barbary Corsairs.

    I guess I like it more if they had to team up to do the plundering. I can see the pirate setting down the looted treasure glyph, but not teleporting it 3 spaces away. Not a big deal.

    PAY, DIE, OR JOIN
    When a figure attacked by a Barbary Corsair receives enough wounds to be destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-5 your opponent may reveal a numbered Order Marker to ignore any wounds received. If you roll 6-17 destroy the defending figure. If you roll an 18 or higher, destroy the figure and replace it with a previously destroyed Barbary Corsair.

    I would increase the chance of the opponent having the option of the ransom, it is such an intriguing and strategic decision. Also, a couple of wording suggestions. I think it should work for any figure. Perhaps a numbered order marker, instead of the X?

    So, from your list of options to keep it at two powers, I would lean toward #1. I could see the last power added to a unique pirate hero - kind of a pirate captain who bonds with the pirates, and who calls the shots:


    PAY, DIE, OR JOIN
    When a figure attacked by Captain Jack receives enough wounds to be destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-7 your opponent may reveal a numbered Order Marker to ignore any wounds received. If you roll 8-14 destroy the defending figure. If you roll a 15 or higher, destroy the figure and replace it with a previously destroyed Barbary Corsair.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:31 pm

    I like the wording you have for plunder, and agree with the team up part, I was trying to make it easier to pull off but I do prefer it this way.

    PAY, JOIN, OR DIE also is worded much better.  I was trying to think about how to exclude the x marker and your wording definitely does that.

    We can go with 3 powers, but saving PAY, JOIN OR DIE for a hero isn't a bad option.  It could be used if he, or a Corsair kills a figure within so many spaces of him.  Good thought.  

    I would like to do a representation of Barbarrosa brothers, Morat Rais, Dragut, and John Ward.  At least a few of http://www.cindyvallar.com/barbarycorsairs.html.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:01 pm

    PAY, DIE, OR JOIN
    When a figure attacked by Captain Jack receives enough wounds to be destroyed, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-7 your opponent may reveal a numbered Order Marker to ignore any wounds received. If you roll 8-14 destroy the defending figure. If you roll a 15 or higher, destroy the figure and replace it with a previously destroyed Barbary Corsair.


    I think we should add:

    Constructs, Soulborgs, and Undead are not affected by Pay, Die, or Join.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:35 pm

    Kai wrote:I think we should add:

    Constructs, Soulborgs, and Undead are not affected by Pay, Die, or Join.

    Agreed
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    Derek S

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Derek S on Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:09 pm

    Yeah, I like adding constructs, and soulborgs for sure.  Undead pirates are kind of cool though.  Do you think the Corsairs should have this power or should a hero?  I am good either way.

    The more I think about it I like it on a hero, if a pirate figure you control .... within so many spaces.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W2 Barbery Corsairs- released

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:42 am

    Derek S wrote:Yeah, I like adding constructs, and soulborgs for sure.  Undead pirates are kind of cool though.  Do you think the Corsairs should have this power or should a hero?  I am good either way.

    The more I think about it I like it on a hero, if a pirate figure you control .... within so many spaces.


    I think a Pirate Hero would be better for the power.

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