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    W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

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    Nomad

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Nomad on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:58 pm

    I prefer to stay away from straight bonding with Dund.

    I really like the power - makes Dund much better. He fried me on our playtest by losing three OMs on Agent Carr.

    Sad to see disengage leave.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:14 am

    Timing/Rules question on Dund:

    CRIPPLING GAZE 15
    Before moving, you may choose a figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Dund.  Roll the 20-sided die.  If you roll a 15 or higher remove all order markers on the chosen figure's army card (or cards).

    For this power ... wouldn't Dund be allowed to use Crippling Gaze *before* he moves?  

    TRACKING
    After taking a turn with the Doggin Trackers, you may move 1 tricky hunter hero or 1 tricky hunter squad you control up to 6 spaces.


    Perhaps, similar to Zaeus:

    TRACKING
    After taking a turn with the Doggin Trackers, you may take a turn with 1 tricky hunter hero you control.  The hunter hero may not attack during this turn.



    This makes it clear that Dund can take a turn and use Crippling Gaze.  I don't think that Nomad is in favor of that, but just in case.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:48 am

    as per the wording on Dund's card you are correct that he can use Crippling Gaze before moving via the Tracker Hound's movement bonding.  This makes baiting ridiculously superfluous.  So let's drop baiting (which was a little complicated anyways) and go back to Disengage which I really want to keep anyways.

    Name- Tracker Hounds
    unique squad
    class- Tracker
    species- Doggin
    personality- Tricky
    size- large
    height- 4 or 5
    life- 1
    move- 7
    range- 1
    attack- 3
    defense- 4
    Points- 120

    TRACKING
    After taking a turn with the Tracker Hounds, you may move 1 tricky hunter hero or 1 tricky hunter squad you control up to 6 spaces.

    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When attacking with the Tracker Hounds, if the defending figure has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, you may add one attack die for each additional Doggin engaged with the defending figure.

    DISENGAGE
    Tracker Hounds are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

    On the Tracking power I am still not sure we shouldn't have a final distance limit from the tracker hounds.  Maybe
    TRACKING
    After taking a turn with the Tracker Hounds, you may move 1 Tricky Hunter Hero or 1 Tricky Hunter Squad you control up to 6 spaces.  Any figure moved by Tracking must end it's movement within 5 spaces of a Tracker Hound you control.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Nomad on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:05 pm

    Good catch on the wording on Dund's card.

    And I think the disengage power makes these guys worth their points.

    Derek wrote:On the Tracking power I am still not sure we shouldn't have a final distance limit from the tracker hounds.  Maybe
    TRACKING
    After taking a turn with the Tracker Hounds, you may move 1 Tricky Hunter Hero or 1 Tricky Hunter Squad you control up to 6 spaces.  Any figure moved by Tracking must end it's movement within 5 spaces of a Tracker Hound you control.

    Let's play test them both ways. On an official map, most times it won't matter. I can see wanting to keep the pack of Doggins in a pack, close to each other. But, Doggins are pretty smart. They may charge in a pack planning to have one, Dund, head to the other side of the map (more than 5 spaces away). It really depends how smart we think the Doggin are in their strategy. I'm leaning toward removing the space limitation.

    The Baiting power sounds cool . . . maybe we can do some form of it for the common puppies.

    Amazing how one sub-par figure (Dund) can result in a whole faction.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:00 am

    Yeah, the no limit- limit won't matter much in the standard game. I still wonder if it is better to keep the limit but am most willing to follow your guys suggestions and go without. If it proves to advantageous to have no limit and these guys feel more than 120, maybe we put the limit back in to keep them at 120 or less. And still we got to keep in mind the possibility of a common squad (or another Tricky Hero) with these guys.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:39 pm

    Check out this "Harpy" common hero from Scytale. Similar ideas/powers to the Doggin' ... might give you some ideas.


    http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
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    Nomad

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Nomad on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:50 pm

    My two cents . . . I preferred the name Doggin Trackers.

    And then Doggin Hounds for a common squad.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:55 pm

    Changed back to Doggin Trackers.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Nomad on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:13 pm

    I know this is very preliminary, but I couldn't resist getting these beautiful sculpts on a card . . . and I'm not satisfied with the positioning on the basic side.



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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:14 pm

    Wow, looks awesome.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:32 pm


    DUDE! that card looks amazing! Great job on the figure pics!
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:05 pm

    How about this for a change:

    Original:
    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When attacking with the Tracker Hounds, if the defending figure has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, you may add one attack die for each additional Doggin engaged with the defending figure.


    Suggestion:
    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When figures you control attack an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, add one attack die if there is at least one Doggin engaged with the defending figure.  If the attacking figure is a Doggin, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled instead.



    This suggestion could be playing off of the "tricky" and/or "baiting" concept of the Doggin, and since this is a Unique squad, they can help support other units even when they aren't at full strength. If they'll be double-spaced, then they could engage multiple targets easier.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:13 pm

    I was thinking about these guys this morning and wondering what Army builds they go with. Here are some thoughts:

    Option 1
    Dund ... 110
    Doggin Trackers ... 230
    Agent Skahen ... 350
    MicroCorp Troopers (c3v) x2 ... 510
    = 510

    Option 2
    Dund ... 110
    Doggin Trackers ... 230
    MicroCorp Troopers (c3v) x3 ... 470
    Guilty McCreech ... 500
    = 500

    Option 3
    Dund ... 110
    Doggin Trackers ... 230
    WarForged Soldiers x3 ... 470
    Guilty McCreech ... 500
    = 500


    All of these options have difficult Order Marker Management. I think that can be a problem that Vydar has - and though c3v tried to help with the Command Courier - that figure is horrible (in my opinion). So while we don't need to fix OM management with these Doggin, maybe that is a future Vydar unit.

    Since this unit is a Unique Squad, maybe we can point them closer to 100 to start. Basically they help Dund, but at 110 points, Dund is over-priced. Maybe we "under-price" the Doggin Trackers (like 80-90 points) to help compensate. Think about how awesome the Marro Warriors are for 50-points : )

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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:04 pm

    Original:
    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When attacking with the Tracker Hounds, if the defending figure has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, you may add one attack die for each additional Doggin engaged with the defending figure.


    Suggestion:
    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When figures you control attack an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, add one attack die if there is at least one Doggin engaged with the defending figure. If the attacking figure is a Doggin, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled instead.

    I could see aiding Hunter figures, but I am real hesitant to make catch all fixers/aiders. Very few heroscape units do that (Raelin, Taelord). I am OK with these guys being somewhat of a niche unit. I think 80 or 90 is way undercosted, maybe 110, maybe 100- which I still think might be pushing them into A+ range, but we can figure points out as playtesting starts. As for the suggestion, what do you think about

    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    This would give these guys an automatic skull when attacking a figure without revealed order markers even if no other Doggin Trackers were adjacent, I think per the language.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:03 am



    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.


    Sounds cool. The limit to Hunter/Tracker is a good balance.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:25 am

    I have tweaked some of the wording slightly and changed the format of the characteristics of the Doggin Trackers. The change in format will make it easier to copy and paste to HS and in revising the card and it would be great to change the OP to reflect those changes to the format.

    Let us know what you think about the changes in wording to the powers. I am suggesting a change to Large 6 - on their hind legs they can reach up quite a bit.

    I vote to change these guys to "Play Testing" - even though we have already done some already. I love these Doggins!

    DOGGIN TRACKERS

    Figures- Confrontation, Creatures of Dirz, Syhar Sighthounds Unit Box

    General: Vydar
    Planet: Feylund

    Species- Doggin
    Unique Squad
    Class: Tracker
    Personality: Tricky
    Large 6

    Life: 1
    Move: 7
    Range: 1
    Attack: 3
    Defense: 4
    120 Points

    TRACKING
    After taking a turn with the Doggin Trackers, you may move 1 Tricky Hunter Hero or 1 Tricky Hunter Squad you control up to 6 spaces.

    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    DISENGAGE
    Doggin Trackers are never attacked when leaving an engagement.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:49 am

    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    The automatic skull might be a little powerful, although I like it. Maybe we should explore, rolls 1 additional attack die. I'll update the OP and title.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:03 pm

    Derek S wrote:TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    The automatic skull might be a little powerful, although I like it.  Maybe we should explore, rolls 1 additional attack die.  I'll update the OP and title.

    An auto-skull is powerful but there are two conditions before it happens - 1. No OM's and 2. Adjacent to Doggin - so I think it is balanced.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:26 pm

    I don't think it will be too bad for other hunters/trackers, but with the Doggin themselves and disengage, move 7, 3 attack with 1 auto skull I think could be pretty powerful, especially against bonding heroes and the like.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:38 am

    Derek S wrote:I don't think it will be too bad for other hunters/trackers, but with the Doggin themselves and disengage, move 7, 3 attack with 1 auto skull I think could be pretty powerful, especially against bonding heroes and the like.

    I haven't play tested them myself yet, but I think it will be okay. Opponent's can just drop an "X" OM on their bonded Hero to counter, so you'll really need Dund to be removing X OM's > but I'm guessing instead you'd go for the squad for Numbered OM's.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:11 am

    As it reads now, the Doggin would receive an auto skull on anyone they attack that does not have a revealed order marker, so the X would be no good. But I do like it and am willing to give it a go, just a little nervous about what this could do to their points.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Nomad on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:56 am

    Well then, the X might be good. It might force the opponent to reveal the X marker on a figure/squad early in the round just to prevent that extra auto skull. Very interesting strategic dilemma . . . I like it.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Lord Kai on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:59 am

    Derek S wrote:As it reads now, the Doggin would receive an auto skull on anyone they attack that does not have a revealed order marker, so the X would be no good.  But I do like it and am willing to give it a go, just a little nervous about what this could do to their points.


    DOH! Sorry I missed the "revealed" part and read it as "does not have an order marker ... " My bad.


    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.


    I'm still okay with it. I am busy all weekend, but I should be able to get a play-test during next week.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Derek S on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:22 pm

    If this proves too powerful, without changing much we could word it like this.

    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    TRACKER AMBUSH
    When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to at least 1 other Doggin Tracker you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

    the intent being that you would need 2 Doggin Trackers next to the same figure to get the bonus, but I think I prefer the current version over this. We could also explore dropping their attack to 2 if it proves too powerful for them.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

    Post  Nomad on Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:32 am

    So, we haven't really changed anything since our play tests months ago (I think we got 5 games in or so). I feel pretty comfortable with the powers/stats. We will want to get in more tests, of course.

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