NAME = Cannon
SPECIES = Inanimate
UNIQUENESS = common
CLASS = weapon
PERSONALITY = explosive
SIZE/HEIGHT = large 3 (will check
LIFE = 5
MOVE = 3
RANGE = 7
ATTACK = 2-3
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = ?
SPECIAL POWERS =
1) A cannon can only move if there are 2 or more medium figures or 1 large or huge figure adjacent to the cannon. All friendly figures adjacent to the cannon prior to moving may move normally, as long as they end their movement adjacent to the cannon moving. (I would much rather go with a rule book on Inanimate movement).
2) For targeting purposes, choose an adjacent friendly figure for line of sight. A cannon cannot attack adjacent figures.
3) When a cannon attack a D.O. add 1 automatic skull, when defending against a special attack add 1 automatic shield. (if we don't come up with a rule book this would be combined with 1) for a move and fire power, which would open up a 4th power).
4) [Shrapnel Special attack Range 7 Attack 3] If at least 2 cannoneers are adjacent the cannon may instead use the Shrapnel special attack. Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by the Shrapnel Special Attack. A cannon only needs a clear sight shot at the chosen figure. Roll 3 attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. A cannon can be affected by its own Shrapnel Special Attack.
NAME = Cannoneers (?)
SPECIES = human
UNIQUENESS = common
CLASS = soldier
PERSONALITY = engineering
SIZE/HEIGHT = medium 4/5 (will check)
LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 2
DEFENSE = 2
POINTS = ?
SPECIAL POWERS =
1) After moving and instead of attacking normally, if a cannoneer ends its movement adjacent to a cannon, the may instead attack with one cannon that they ended their movement adjacent to.
2) For every cannoneer adjacent to a cannon you may add 1 to the cannon's move, Range, and attack to a maximum of +3.
3) before moving, if at least 2 cannoneers are adjacent to the same cannon, they can instead take a turn with the cannon.
How about something like:
Name = CANNON
Species = Siege Weapon
Uniqueness = Uncommon Hero
General = Vydar
Class = Artillery
Personality = Relentless
Size/Height = Large 3
Life = 3
Move = 0
Range = 8
Attack = 0
Defense = 4
Points = 30
HEAVY ARTILLERY (Flaw)
Cannon does not receive bonuses for Height advantage. Cannon has a Move of 0. Instead of moving and attacking normally any medium, large or huge figure adjacent to Cannon may declare that they are moving that Cannon. Each medium figure gives the Cannon 1 move, and each large or huge figure gives the Cannon 3 move. After moving the Cannon, place any figures that moved the Cannon adjacent to it. A figure cannot exceed its normal move when being placed adjacent to the Cannon.
BARRAGE
Instead of moving, the Cannon may use Barrage as a normal attack. Add 1 attack dice for each figure that added Move to the Cannon this turn, up to 6 attack. Minimum attack is 2 dice.
SHRAPNEL SPECIAL ATTACK
Range: 8 Attack: 4
Instead of attacking with Barrage, Cannon may use Shrapnel Special Attack. Chose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Shrapnel Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Cannon can be affected by Shrapnel Special attack.
==
Name = ELITE ARTILLERY TEAM
Species = Human
Uniqueness = Common Squad
General = Vydar
Class = Artillery
Personality = Precise
Size/Height = Medium 4
Life = 1
Move = 4
Range = 1
Attack = 2
Defense = 3
Points = 40
SKILLED TEAM WORKED
When adding to the Move value of a siege weapon, Elite Artillery Team adds 2 move per figure instead of 1.
READY, AIM, FIRE!
Before attacking with a ranged siege weapon, you may reveal an X order marker on the Elite Artillery Team to activate Ready Aim, Fire!. If you do, you may add 2 attack and 2 range to any normal attack this turn.
COORDINATED SALVO
Before attacking with a ranged siege weapon, you may reveal an X order marker on the Elite Artillery Team to activate Coordinated Salvo. If you do, you may attack with up to three ranged siege weapons this turn. There must be at least one Elite Artillery team figure adjacent to each siege weapon that attacks.
I wouldn't mind having a movement value listed on individual weapon cards. That way a large Cannon (relatively cumbersome to move) and a large wagon (not that I see one being made) that is relatively easy to move could have different move values. I like the idea of a large or huge figure being able to move a cannon more easily but I don't know if we want a Siege Tower to be able to move 8 spaces (if you had a squad of Templar Knights next to it). We should also address what happens (falling damage, etc) when a weapon is destroyed. I wouldn't mind having appropriate falling damage being applied, and having one attack dice rolled for each figure that is adjacent to or occupying the weapon. Is there anything else we should consider putting in the rule book
Those are excellent points!
For the 'siege weapons' - I was wondering what the "base" would be like. For example, the Cannon looks like a peanut base could work for the wheels, but should it really be on a 3-hexer?
For the Siege Tower , I'm guessing that would be a on 3 or 4 hexes as well, so we might need 8 movement points to get the front base and the back base moved.
You're thinking of a small rulebook like c3g does for "Knockback" for the Siege Weapons, right? I'd be up for working on that.
The cannon will easily fit on a peanut base- probably even a small one. Yes, I am thinking a rulebook like the c3g does. Maybe we just address the canon for now, and add other items to the book down the road that way we can adjust for 4 space items and such down the road. We would then just need to come to a concensus on the move basics and specifics of the cannon being destroyed for now. I think having an expandable rule book for these things would be good.
I’m sorry that I’m late to the conversation. Sounds like some great ideas.
Derek - I confess, I haven’t had the time to look at the discussions that others have had that you referenced on Scapers – so all of my questions and thoughts may change.
Just a couple of questions so that I can get my mind around the cannons . . .
Since they are inanimate/destructible, they don’t actually perform actions on their own, correct?
So, there wouldn’t be a case where you would put order markers on a cannon, correct?
So, the cannon, since it doesn’t move on its own accord, wouldn’t need a move number, correct? If there is a move number, it would be utilized in a different way than the Move on other cards.
I think the Cannoneers should definitely increase the range, attack, and the ability to move the cannon – that is their job and what they have been trained to do.
Regarding movement:
The cannon may be moved 2 spaces per medium figure that starts and ends the movement adjacent to the cannon, 3 spaces per large, and 4 spaces per huge – or something like that.
I like the idea of the shrapnel special attack.
I like the idea of an auto skull or two on a door.
I like the Coodinated Salvo and Ready, Aim, Fire concepts using the X marker.
Minimum range on the normal attack should be 8, if not more. It will be tough to move that thing around – ooh, even turning it should cost a movement.
Regarding wounds on adjacent figures when the cannon is destroyed . . . does this exist in the classic scape world at this point? If not, I’d prefer to leave it in the C3G universe (we don’t even play with destructible battlements, trees, etc., that cause damage to adjacent figures with C3G even though those rules exist).
Regarding the book:
I’m all in favor of trying to make it playable just by looking at the card – I dislike having to stop a game, run to the other room to get a rule book, thumb through the pages, etc. The C3G books are works of art, but it became bothersome just to find out the specifics for knockback or superhero lava damage (now if they were on a card . . . that would have been nice!). I’m not against this idea, but I would like to get as much info on the cannon card as possible to make it playable. General rules, mechanics, examples, etc, in a book – that is all good.
Peace,
Damon
They would not be able to perform functions on their own, at least without restrictions in place.
For putting order markers on them- It depends on the road we go down. In my initial writeup you could only use the cannon if you had an order marker on the cannon and a certain amount of figures adjacent, or through bonding by having an order on the cannon squad. But certainly nothing is settled there.
For move- There are multiple ways to do this; having every adjacent figure add to the move total, with bonus's for size. Have a set move number that a cannon can move that requires certain conditions (an x amount of squad or med/small figures, large or huge figures). Or many other options. If the cannon were to have a move number it would not be able to move in the normal sense- it would represent the potential move if certain conditions are met. This is why I think a rule book on "weapon" movement, destruction, etc. would be worth doing. Just like how normal movement is discussed in the rule book, not on the card. There is a potential for having a 3-spaced or bigger "weapon" and rather than trying to explain all the movement issues on the card, I think a rule book would be in order, but we don't have to, we could try and keep it all on the card.
Lava damage, movement, flying, attacking, LOS, road bonus, snow/ice movement, etc. are all addressed in the rule books not on the cards- exceptions to the rules are usually put on the card. These "weapons/inanimates" do not exist in classic scape, so there are no existing rules for them to go by. I have no problem dropping the idea of weapons because they do not fit with the heroscape universe as it is, but I do think we could have some fun with this. The idea for damage stems from discussion on the "siege weapon" where the question is what to do with the figures that occupy the siege weapon when it is destroyed. Are all figures destroyed, do you apply falling damage, etc? If we continue with the weapon idea we will have to figure out what happens when it is destroyed. I think general rules, examples, mechanics for these weapons is what we would be doing in the rulebook, this way the movement rules, attack rules, destruction rules for "weapons/inanimates" could be shown without trying to do it on the card- no other card explains movement/attack-targeting/destruction on the card itself, if that makes sense. Although we could try to get this all on the individual cards without a rulebook- then we wouldn't have to worry about how other weapon/inanimate objects would move/attack-target/get destroyed, etc. but then I think we would be very limited on space for adding potential specials that a weapon could do. I will take a look at how the breakable wall and door are reflected in the rulebooks compared to the card to see what we should apply from there to this.
I don't see the rulebook being any different than the FoA in discussing the door. The rulebook discusses opening/closing, targeting, build requirements, attacking, etc. I think there were more plans for other doors that would have followed these same rules. The card for the FoA door only states its specific properties- adding 2 auto shields against small or medium, and 1 auto shield against large or huge. Other doors in the works more than likely would have had other specific properties on it's card but still followed the same rules.
I see "weapons/inanimates" as working the same way if that helps with the rulebook idea being thrown out there;
1) how do weapons move. (Have an order marker on the card and if there are (such and such qualifications) met it may move its move #, weapons can not end their movement on uneven spaces, etc)
2) how do weapons attack. (If an order marker is revealed on a weapon and (such and such qualifications) are met choose an adjacent figure for targeting purposes and the weapon may attack).
3) how do weapons defend. (They may be targeted and attack much like a figure).
4) how do weapons get destroyed. (If they receive enough wounds to reach their life they are removed from the game)
5) Which player(s) get to use the weapons. (only figures that drafted the weapon- unless used in a scenario- may use the weapon. A weapon can never be taken over by an opponent by any means-ie., mindshackle.)
The blue typing is thrown out as an example, not what I would necessarily push for. There are probably some more thoughts that should be in rule book (if we go that route) than listed here, which we might miss when discussing the cannon, but catch when (if) we discuss a Siege Weapon, which is why the rule book would be expandable or adjustable. Hopefully this will help in making the decision to do a rulebook or not for all 4 of us.
Got it. The rulebook sounds like it is necessary if we are going to create more weapons – cannon, siege tower, trebuchet, catapults, tanks, B-52s, starships, deathstars, . . . (just kidding – kind of). Can we put limitations on the types of weapons? It seems that when figures are brought to Valhalla from another world, it is just the figure, the clothes on their back, and the weapons they are carrying. Can we limit it to types of weapons that we envision might be in Valhalla – medieval/Viking conquest times at the latest? I don’t want tanks or deathstars.
Regarding the rule book, we will need to be sure that everything is consistent for all the weapons, so as we look at designing the cannon I like your idea of also considering other types of weapons that will have the same general characteristics. I can see falling damage for people on a siege tower when it is destroyed, but not when a cannon is destroyed – no one is on top of it (unless the extra powder blows up – hmm).
This is a ton to think about. Definitely agree that the rule book would be a work in progress, maybe not make it public until we have 2 or 3 weapons created. Having the specific properties on the cards for each weapon would be good with me. Still a lot to think about – I’m glad you are taking this on!
Now, for another play test or two with the Fusiliers. I hope to have a specific proposal out this weekend.
I think it is easier to have (siege) weapons be like the Fortress Door or other destructible objects. This way they don't have a Unit Cost/Points of their own ... but maybe certain units can start with one {like the Cannoneers}.
MOVE. Rules for moving weapons can be general - and described in a special rulebook like the Fortress Door operation. But then the Card for the weapon will have any special rules for it.
So the rulebook might say how much movement a siege weapon has (and maybe there are medium, large and huge weapons) .. but then specialty units like the Cannoneers might get/give bonus move to certain weapons.
ATTACK. Spelled out in Rulebook, though specialist units might give a bonus. I would think that order markers would only be on Army Cards (and not weapons).
DEFENSE. Like any destructible object.
When DESTROYED? There could be some great meta-game around a siege tower falling!! Like rolling for damage when a Frost Giant dies! Could even do things like 'place a large ruin' on the board to represent debris or something. I could see rolling a die like an engagement strike after a tower is destroyed. Could be considered falling damage or shrapnel when the weapon blows up.
I think we should find two or three weapons to start. The Cannon can be a good medium weapon .. .maybe the Siege Tower is a huge weapon.
Would love to hear any thoughts Jason had on this. It sounds like everyone else is willing to go down the "weapon" road with a weapon rulebook. I don't myself want to include a deathstar or tank, but.... The Siege pack from Mage Knight has a cannon (bigger than the one being designed), a stone thrower, a mortar, and a Living Ballista (would be a character in and of himself). The cannon and mortar would probably need to occupy a 3-hex space. The stone thrower would fit a peanut base, has no wheels (probably shouldn't be able to move). I do not know how big the Siege Tower will be- hopefully only 4 spaces.
Kai kind of throws out something I hadn't really thought of before with "This way they don't have a Unit Cost/Points of their own ... but maybe certain units can start with one {like the Cannoneers}". Maybe all weapons are tied to a specific unit/squad. The cannon is part of the cannoneer common squad with the points factored in. We could have a unique squad of rock guys that go with the stonethrower weapon. Some large beasts (maybe uncommon) that go with the Siege Tower . But then the weapon could only be used by the figures tied to it- or maybe not. Just some more thoughts to add.
The Siege Pack is interesting. I could see different Cannons for different Units (like a Vydar, Utgar, etc.)
http://www.amazon.com/Mage-Knight-Conquest-Siege-Pack/dp/B00006697X That living ballista is a little ... odd.
Okay, this is what I've got. I haven't tested them ...
Name: Elite Artillery Team
Species: Human
Uniqueness: Common Squad
General: Jandar or Einar
Class: Artillerists
Personality: Precise
Size/Height: Medium 4
Life: 1
Move: 5
Range: 1
Attack: 2
Defense: 3
Points: 70
CANNON. At the beginning of the game, you may place up to 1 Cannon in your start zone for each squad of Elite Artillery Team you control.
CANNON MOVEMENT. Instead of moving the Elite Artillery Team normally, you may choose any number of Elite Artillery Team figures adjacent to a Cannon and move that Cannon up to one space for each chosen unit. After you move the Cannon, place each chosen figure adjacent to the Cannon.
CANNON BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK. Range 8. Attack 4. Instead of attacking normally, three Elite Artillery Team adjacent to the same Cannon can use a Cannon Blast special attack. Use any of the Elite Artillery Team for detemining line of sight. All skulls count as one additional hit.
Thanks for chiming in Jason!
Interesting. The Cannoneers and the cannon all on one card! I kind of like that – very simple.
RE Blast SA: A prefect roll of 4 skulls = 8 wounds – ouch, I’m running from that thing (or sending in the expendable rabble to try to take out the cannoneers – kind of like real life). How about attack of 1, but each additional cannoneer adds one die to the attack? So it could start with 4 dice, but if you can pick off a cannoneer the attack would diminish . . . can’t pack as much powder with fewer dudes? Just throwing out ideas.
RE Movement: A cannon should be tough to move.
I still like the idea of the shrapnel special attack as well.
I'm definitely open to feedback. Just tossing out some ideas.
I like the cannon special attack value as a function of adjacent dudes (reflecting accuracy), with an upper limit. The perfect roll worried me, too, so I was thinking about dropping it to 3. No height to modify because it is a special, so that helps.
Note, the way I wrote the cannon movement allows for 6 peeps to move it, which would help with people shooting the cannoneers. This is zombie esque and helps offset the 'we need to stand around a cannon' issue. I also wrote the special attack as requiring three adjacent peeps, so if you only have 3 around it and one died, the special wouldn't be an option. So ... I wanted you to be able to move more than 3 up at a time.
We could drop the movement to 1/2 the number of people, rounded up (so, 1 move for 1 or 2 peeps, 2 move for 3 and 4, 3 move for 5 and 6. Or 1+ 1/2 ... or something. Makes the cannon slower.
I was thinking the special wouldn't need line of sight. Just pick a straight line eminating from the cannon (ala Mimring). This would allow staggered approaches and not just being worried about being with an 8 range. Hmm ... still working it out.
I like the Shrapnel attack, too. We could have it be a 2 person squad, and make the third guy a common hero who allowed for a Shrapnel attack. Then modify the numbers and powers above to reflect 2 man working team. Thoughts?
J
This is what I have from when we were emailing.