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    W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

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    Lord Kai

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    W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun May 26, 2013 12:57 pm

    Unit Name: Uvall, Demon of Wrath

    General: Valkrill

    Species: Demon

    Type: Unique Hero

    Class: Lord

    Personality: Relentless

    Size: Large 6 (single large base)

    Points: 110

    Stats

    Life: 5

    Move: 5

    Range: 1

    Attack: 5

    Defense: 3

     

    Special Powers

    DEMONIC EXCHANGE 13

    After attacking with Uvall, if he destroyed a figure, you may roll the twenty-side die. If the destroyed figure was a Unique Hero, add 5 to your roll. If you roll a 13 or higher, place one of your previously destroyed Demon squad figures adjacent to Uvall.

     

    COMMAND THE HARPIES

    After revealing an order marker and taking a turn with Uvall, you may take a turn with one squad of Bloodhunter Harpies you control.

     

    FLYING

    When counting spaces for Uvall’s movement, ignore elevations. Uvall may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If Uvall is engaged when it starts to fly, it will take any leaving engagement attacks.


    Last edited by Lord Kai on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun May 26, 2013 12:59 pm

    Unit Name: Bloodhunter Harpies

    General: Valkrill

    Species: Demon

    Type: Common Squad (2 figures)

    Class: Hunter

    Personality: Terrifying

    Size: Medium 5

    Points: 70

    Stats

    Life: 1

    Move: 6

    Range: 1

    Attack: 3

    Defense: 4



    Special Powers

    BLOOD FRENZY

    If you destroy an opponent's figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. Move the chosen Bloodhunter Harpy up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy, if that Bloodhunter Harpy ends its movement engaged, choose one of the engaged figures and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. Bloodhunter Harpies may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.



    FLYING

    When counting spaces for a Bloodhunter Harpy’s movement, ignore elevations. A Bloodhunter Harpy may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If a Bloodhunter Harpy is engaged when it starts to fly, it will take any leaving engagement attacks.

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    Nomad

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    Change in Blood Frenzy?

    Post  Nomad on Sun May 26, 2013 4:27 pm

    BLOOD FRENZY

    If you destroy an opponent's figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. Move the chosen Bloodhunter Harpy up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy, if that Bloodhunter Harpy ends its movement engaged, choose one of the engaged figures and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. Each Bloodhunter Harpy may only use Blood Frenzy once per turn.

    Per you last e-mail regarding these guys.

    So where are we? Do we need to do more play testing? I have play tested these correctly about 4 times, but at 50/60 points for the Harpies. I can do another test at 70 points. I have also not tried them with Death Knights.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Wed May 29, 2013 6:30 pm

    Nomad wrote:BLOOD FRENZY

    So where are we? Do we need to do more play testing? I have play tested these correctly about 4 times, but at 50/60 points for the Harpies. I can do another test at 70 points. I have also not tried them with Death Knights.

    70-points is probably about right if we want them to at B or B+

    60-points is likely A or A+


    I don't want to go any higher than 70 points, as they seem to equate well to Fire Elementals (35-points each) though I think they are slightly weaker than FE's.

    They could use a little more play-testing.
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    Nomad

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    Change in Blood Frenzy? Part 2

    Post  Nomad on Thu May 30, 2013 8:56 pm

    OK, more play testing.

    Can we change the Blood Frenzy power so that each figure can only do once per turn?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:13 am


    BLOOD FRENZY

    If you destroy an opponent's figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. Move the chosen Bloodhunter Harpy up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy, if that Bloodhunter Harpy ends its movement engaged, choose one of the engaged figures and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. Bloodhunter Harpies may use Blood Frenzy only once per turn.

    or

    BLOOD FRENZY

    If you destroy an opponent's figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. Move the chosen Bloodhunter Harpy up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy, if that Bloodhunter Harpy ends its movement engaged, choose one of the engaged figures and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. Each Bloodhunter Harpy may only use Blood Frenzy once per turn.

    Which language are we using here? Can you only Blood Frenzy once per turn as the 1st indicates, or can you do it as many times as you destroy a figure and have a Harpy in range that has not Frenzied yet as the 2nd quote indicates?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:02 pm

    I would go with this one:

    BLOOD FRENZY

    If you destroy an opponent's figure with an attack you may choose an unengaged Bloodhunter Harpy that is within 8 spaces of the destroyed figure. Move the chosen Bloodhunter Harpy up to 6 spaces. After moving with Blood Frenzy, if that Bloodhunter Harpy ends its movement engaged, choose one of the engaged figures and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound. Each Bloodhunter Harpy may only use Blood Frenzy once per turn.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:36 pm

    Perhaps the last line
    Each Bloodhunter Harpy may only use Blood Frenzy once per turn.
    should read "A Bloodhunter Harpy may Blood Frenzy once per turn." or "Each Bloodhunter Harpy may Blood Frenzy no more than once per turn." or "A Bloodhunter Harpy may Blood Frenzy only once per turn."
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:50 pm

    Ran 3 Playtests with Chela (200), Uvall (110), Bloodhunter Harpies x3 (70), for a total of 520. Two of the Games were against Migol, Morgrim, Axegrinders x4, for a total of 510.

    Game 1-Axegrinders win with 6 left, a full life Migol, and a 1 life Morgrimm.
    Uvall and 4 Harpies went one way, Chela another. Migol and Morgrimm did the same dividing the dwarfs evenly. Uvall fell after a big hit from Migol and a fearless dwarf attack. 3 Harpies went pretty easy, the other crossing the map to join Chela and his 2 remaining brothers. Uvall lost one O.M. for the demon team. The Axegrinders picked up the common attack glyph and managed to take down Chela with 2 commander strikes thrown in, although Morgrimm put 2 additional wounds on the big fellow. Blood Frenzy worked twice. Before Uvall fell in one turn to 2 attacks I really thought the demon's had the upper hand. They'd killed 5 dwarf's, had 3 wounds on Morgrimm and position. Chela really struggled to take out Morgrimm who had height thus allowing the dwarf's to keep constant pressure.

    Game 2- Axegrinders win with 2 left and a 4 life Migol.
    Dwarf's follow the same stategy, while the demons keep a tighter formation. A Harpy gets on attack +1 and is protected from Chela. The Blood Frenzy works a little more frequently this game, Uvall manages a Demonic exchange, Harpies killing dwarfs with boosted attack. Then I think I made a blunder by having the Harpy on the attack +1 glyph frenzy off to wound Morgrimm (height on the clumsy to place Chela again). The Harpy did get Morgrimm who soon was destroyed. Migol raced past the standoff between Chela, 1 Harpy, and the 3 or 4 dwarfs who could an attack off that turn to destroy 2 remaining Harpies in the start zone. Migol then goes for the attack +1 glyph and that gives the dwarf's enough umpph to get Chela and the last Harpy.

    Game 3 against Qhuohon, Wyvern, 2 blue wyrmlings, and spiders x4 (520)
    Demons win with a 1 exo full life Chela.
    Chela took 2 turns to get to the initiative +8 glyph, which 1 of the blue wyrmlings had uncovered, while the other blue wyrmling stayed on common attack +1 until Chela went after him at the end. The Harpies and Uvall used their masterful board coverage to keep Quahon from getting too many specials against Chela. Uvall and the Harpies had many chances to demonic exchange and bloodfrenzy and succeeded a fair amount of times- 3 for the exchange. They wiped out everything but 2 spiders, the Wyvern and 1 blue Wyrmling. The Wyvern and 2 remaining spiders had 2 free turns after Uvall fell (to a 4 attack from the Wyvern). The spiders cleaned up the last 2 Harpies while the Wyvern got a 3 skull attack on Chela to cause him to burn an exo. Chela took 2 turns, 1 attack from the Wyvern, to put the Wyvern to rest. He made quick work of the last 2 spiders and wyrmling.

    Final thoughts-
    Chela only had to defend against a special (Quahon's once (maybe twice) in all 3 battles, he was hard to take down in 2 of the battles. The dwarf's are a good melee counter because they end up with their base stats (although the reduced move did come into play with them on 2 different occasions. I am good with 200 here although he at times played up to 210. This team is fair when played together.

    Uvall has a glass jaw which is good for his attack and exchange abilities. If he stays alive the Harpies and him are really devastating. I really think he is dead on. The only suggestion I would make here is to have the Command the Harpies power read

    After revealing an order marker and taking a turn with Uvall, you may take a turn with one squad of Bloodhunter Harpies you control.


    This will allow for future harpies perhaps- you never know.

    Bloodhunter Harpies are very versatile. They need to get within range of the killing and they are devastating. Their range of crossing 18 spaces in a single turn is amazing (I think I managed to get one 16 spaces once). I think they could be a fun little filler in any army, especially ones with multiple turns. They performed decent in all 3 games and I think 70 pts are right on, they will be better on occasion and dismissible on others if they don't have any killing going on around them.

    Two last Questions. A newly created Harpy gets to Bloodfrenzy (I did on 3 different occasions)? And, have you rebased your Uvall yet?- I am not 100% sure he should not be on a small peanut (seems close to overhanging the big rounds).

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    Nomad

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    Play test

    Post  Nomad on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:26 am

    I'm surprised the Harpies/Uval/Chela combo didn't crush the dwarves. I have only run one play test with this combo and they were awesome . . . I'll have to do some more.

    So, it just seems we need to agree on some wording for the harpies and we are good to go after a little more play testing? Part of the issue here is that they can be so variable . . . which is part of great and fun design - well done, Kai.

    I am totally in agreement that Uval should be able to bond with any Harpies as I suggested long ago . . . we could always develop some more Harpy demons down the line.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:05 am

    Damon was down for a few games last weekend and these guys got some time.  The Harpies we feel could be 65 or 70 pts- Damon leaning to 65, me to 70.  Both of us are good either way.  Really fun unit.  I hope you move them to final editing soon.

    Uvall underperformed more oft than not.  That is ok.  We both would really like to see him bond with any harpy squad- this might be enough to keep everything else the same.  The other options are to lower his points by 10 (I'm not a big fan of this) or to up his defense by 1 (I think a 4 def 5 life character who can bring back demons would necessitate a points bump though) or we could up his life by 1 and run a few more playtests.  We thought Uvall is real close to move on in the process, looking forward to finalizing this guy.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:52 am


    Thanks for all the play-test reports.

    I am going to request the Makers of Custom Cards (MCC) update the one's that they made. I'll increase Harpies to 65 points and decrease Uvall to 100 points.

    Peace,
    *Kai
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    Nomad

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    Harpies?

    Post  Nomad on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:41 pm

    I was in favor of dropping the Harpies to 60 points from their current 70 . . . we compromised at suggesting 65.

    So Kai, I take it that you are not in favor of allowing Uvall to bond with any Harpy squads just in case we create more down the line?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:24 pm

    I asked the MCC to update the cards.






    I think that the Harpies are a little over-priced at 65 (since they started at 50) but as their designer I'm a little bias - so I'm glad that the 2nd and 3rd opinions have them more balanced.  Uvall at 100 seems great.


    Uvall .. 100
    Bloodhunter Harpies x3 .. 195
    Base   295

    That leaves about 200 points for other figures to support the Demon of Wrath and his Harpies.  You could squeeze Chela in there, or maybe some Deathknights, or a little range to help out.

    I think these two Army Cards are a nice addition to VALKRILL.


    Thanks for all the play-testing!!!
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:20 pm

    Is Uvall going to be limited to only the BloodHunter Harpies? or any Harpy's?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:37 pm

    Derek S wrote:Is Uvall going to be limited to only the BloodHunter Harpies?  or any Harpy's?

    If we find figures that would be additional Harpies, I think we could open it up. But at this point I'm not sure we have them 'on deck' so I didn't change that text. Not sure if other Harpies would be Squads or Common Heroes though - lots of variables.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:14 pm

    COMMAND THE HARPIES

    After revealing an order marker and taking a turn with Uvall, you may take a turn with one squad of Bloodhunter Harpies you control.

    becomes

    COMMAND THE HARPIES

    After revealing an order marker and taking a turn with Uvall, you may take a turn with one squad of Bloodhunter Harpies you control.

    doesn't seem too variable to me.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:26 pm


    Sorry, the variables are about the new "Harpy" race figures that we would create. I remember there being questions about whether the Bloodhunters should be Squad figures or Common Heroes. We ended up on making a two-person Squad. But I don't think that we have any other 'Harpy' figures in brainstorming stage.

    If we did find a Harpy and we made it a Common Hero then we would really need to change Uvall's bonding around if we wanted him to work with Common Harpy heroes.

    So I think he is fine the way he is.
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    Nomad

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    Thanks for responding to suggestions

    Post  Nomad on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:44 pm

    I would have been thrilled if these guys were common heroes. In fact, that was my very first suggestion back when we were doing it by e-mail. There just seems to be so much more potential that way . . . "take a turn with two Harpy common heroes." This would have been more in-line with your first design. Plus, these guys would have been an excellent filler as a common hero.

    Either way - I hear that we are ready to move on?
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:33 am


    The decision to make them a Squad instead of a Common Hero was to simplify the amount of Text on the Bloodhunter Harpies ... which was already lengthy, in my opinion. We could certainly have followed the "Thrall" design that works well for them - but I think it will be harder to find "Harpy" heroes as we go forward.

    But yes, I'd like to move on. I think we have a solid design here, that's ready for more combat in The Battle of All Time. Let's get Uvall and the Harpies onto the battlefield, and see how they do.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:30 am

    I think both are ready for final editing.  I still think that dropping the Bloodhunter part from Uvall is worth considering.  So Uvall could take a turn with any squad of Harpies that may or may not be made- leaves possibilities for future squad(s) of harpies to be made without having to change Uvall's card down the road.  It also doesn't allow for hero harpies to take a turn, so there is no future design problems there.  An unique squad could be an issue,

    Maybe,

    COMMAND THE HARPIES

    After revealing an order marker and taking a turn with Uvall, you may take a turn with one common squad of Bloodhunter Harpies you control.

    But if we don't want to let Uvall have that flexibility down the road, I am ok with that.
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    Nomad

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    Images

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:47 am

    Kai,

    Can you send me some high quality pics of Uvall and a couple of the Harpies? I would like to get their cards done today/tomorrow. If you don't have any, I can get Caitlin to snap a few.

    Thanks!
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:34 pm

    Thanks for the pics, Kai.

    Just a general request for all future customs. Please have the final stats and powers in the OP. This will save me so much time when creating the cards. I spent an extra 15-20 minutes searching for the final wording through this thread for the Harpies . . . no biggie, but it would be helpful.

    So, after I post the card in a few . . . let me know if this is really what was wanted.

    Thanks!
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Nomad on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:17 am



    OK, here is the card for the Harpies, I will get to work on Uvall.

    Let me know if you see any errors . . . I triple checked, but I'm sure I missed something.

    I'm still not convinced this is the best and final rendition possible for this is figure, but I will vote "yes" for final approval with the following disclaimer:

    I think making them common heroes and allowing Uvall to bond with any two Harpy common heroes would be better, but I am more than happy to include these guys as is. I haven't really heard the justification for keeping them as a squad and not allowing Uvall to bond with any two Harpies common heroes. Just a tweak or two in the wording is all that would be necessary. Kai, don't get me wrong - I love these guys and your design is excellent! I just don't feel that my suggestions were addressed or acknowledged since my first e-mail regarding your proposal long ago.

    I don't understand why you went away from your initial design. Please forgive me if you find this offensive in any way . . .
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Uvall and the Harpies - Released*

    Post  Derek S on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:53 am

    I didn't notice any errors with a couple of reads. Another great looking card. Although I think Bloodfrenzy 14 could use some better wording. Will address in the next few days, has to do with after the , "choose one of the engaged figures". Maybe a more heroscape worded line would be after moving with that bloodhunter harpy you may choose an engaged figure and roll the ...

    A final editing stage would have been good to catch any last wording changes or such.


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