W1 Torver - RELEASED

DAUNTLESS GAIN HIGH GROUND
After taking a turn with Torver, you may do one of the following with figures you control:

* Move Torver up to 2 spaces, or
* Move 1 Dauntless Hero up to 2 spaces, or
* Move 3 small or medium Dauntless Squad figures up to 1 space each.

These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher for each figure and must be in clear line of sight of Torver before moving.

I would prefer this to be just Torver, or all figures with the Gain High Ground may use that power after taking a turn with Torver (prefer this).

BOULDER THROW
After moving and instead of attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll a 14 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. If the thrown figure is a Dauntless figure you control, do not roll for throwing damage and you may immediately use a normal attack with that figure.

Wouldn't mind if this was after moving and before attack, choose 1 small or medium figure adjacent to Torver. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 spaces of Torver. If the figure doesn't have flying or stealth flying, after the figure is placed roll for throwing damage...

I really like the changes made here, good job.

I tried to get it all on a card last night . . . and it is too much to fit. How about this?

GREATER GAIN HIGH GROUND
After taking a turn with Torver, you may move Torver up to 2 spaces. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher. You may also use the Gain High Ground special power listed on any Army Card you control.

Derek wrote:
Wouldn't mind if this was after moving and before attack, choose 1 small or medium figure adjacent to Torver. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 spaces of Torver. If the figure doesn't have flying or stealth flying, after the figure is placed roll for throwing damage...

So, essentially this would give Torver a double attack - his own and that of the Dauntless figure. Or, his throw and his own. I'm not sure. We can play test it both ways, but I think it might bump his points quite a bit.

I don't think I need to address stealth flying in the text of the power, since they are flyers.

GREATER GAIN HIGH GROUND
After taking a turn with Torver, you may move Torver up to 2 spaces. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher. You may also use the Gain High Ground special power listed on any Army Card you control.


Will this wording actually work? The GG's Gain the High Ground say "after taking a turn ... "

For 150 points - being able to Throw and make an attack is inline with Cyprien or Major Q10.

Kai wrote:Will this wording actually work? The GG's Gain the High Ground say "after taking a turn ... "

Good catch.

How about this?

GREATER GAIN HIGH GROUND
After taking a turn with Torver, you may move Torver up to 2 spaces and all figures you control with the Gain High Ground special power up to 1 space. These spaces may be up to 4 levels higher.

Kai wrote:For 150 points - being able to Throw and make an attack is inline with Cyprien or Major Q10

So, as written - you see Torver at a different point value? 130? He does look pretty similar to Zaeus. Torver is going to have height with his attacks and defenses most of the time if it is possible. I would prefer it if he were a little less in points so that an army could be Torver, 3 GGs, and a 70 pt future Stone Giant.

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Torver (I went with the stats in my previous post, but at 130 points and I had him be able to use Gain High Ground with all GGs after his turn)

THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects. The powers and stats seem to fit the character and theme. Powers should affect destructible objects. PASS.

FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play? Not really. The GGs are so slow still . . . they even roll crappy defense dice. Torver rolled OK, but he was generally uninspiring. I so wanted a double attack a number of times. FAIL.

FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying? PASS.

USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable? All powers are usable, although using the throw or the attack always boiled down to choosing to attack against Stingers and I couldn't throw Tor-Kul-Na. I could have thrown a GG a couple of times, but chose to attack with Torver instead. PASS.

STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game? A little - you get to move GGs one step closer to being picked off by the ranged Stingers. Real fun. But in general, Torver was uninspiring to play with. FAIL.

BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately? PASS

SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak? PASS

POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including released C3V and SoV units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? Not that I see. PASS

DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting? Not sure. He is a cool sculpt and has some cool stuff going on . . . but the GGs are just so slow. He needs a revision to get this guy worth drafting with GGs. FAIL.

MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game? No. PASS

ARMY TEST 1

Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. [insert pass/fail, point value, and brief summary] Too early to assign a pass or fail at this point. He killed/wounded about 170 points worth, but only because the GGs couldn't do their job. I would say as played, Torver would be about 120/130 points. But, if he is going to be worth playing with GGs, he needs something else. When I realized that Zetacron was my best hope in the 3rd round, I knew something needed to change.

Map: Sirocco

Units:

Army 1: Granites x3, Torver, Zetacron = 490 points

VS

Army 2: Stingers x3, Nagrubs x3, Tor-Kul-Na = 490 points

Rd 1. Both the Stingers and the Granites split to height on each side of the board. Stingers pick off two GGs on their way up. Torver did crush a Stinger on the def+1 glyph with a 4/6 roll. 1 Stinger died.

Rd 2. More movement to height - in fact, not a single figure entered the center of the board the entire game except for a couple of Grubs. 3 GGs and 2 Stingers kicked the bucket. Torver took out another Stinger on the glyph.

Rd 3. Two more GGs and 2 Stingers died. I didn't keep track how poorly the GGs rolled def. Tork charged up the hill on OM#3 and placed two wounds on Torver.

Rd 4. 1 GG, Torver, and Tork all expired this round. A Grub was also a snack. Torver rolled a perfect 5/5 attack on Tork for 4 wounds. It took Tork 3 attacks to take out Torver. Zeta rolled 3/3 skulls for 6 hits and a kill on Tork to end the round.

Rd 5. 2 grubs died. Zeta and the last GG were able to defend multiple attacks from Grubs and Stingers.

Rd 6. On the first turn in the round, the GG and Zeta both whiff against the first two Stingers. Game over.

Final thoughts: Team Tork had 160 points left. It didn't really feel that close. As played, Torver was uninspiring. Changes are needed. Thanks for the input, fellows.

OK, I updated the OP with my last thoughts - actually your thoughts. This is where I'm going to play test him next.

The Greater Gain High Ground now allows you to move each GG 2 spaces instead of 1. I'm thinking this might be incentive to play Torver with the GGs.

The Boulder Throw is now before attacking and dropped the roll needed for wounds to 11 or higher. So yes, he does get a sort of double attack.

I set his points at 140.

I'll be curious how speedy the GG's seem when they are all moving 2 spaces each turn. If that proves too powerful you could go with something like
After taking a turn with Torver, you may treat all characters that have gain high ground as if they took a turn. I'm not to worried about the wording until the power is actually adapted. Hopefully I can give Torver a spin soon.

Sounds a bit like a relaxing week for you- wish we could have gotten together.

Nomad wrote:OK, I updated the OP with my last thoughts - actually your thoughts. This is where I'm going to play test him next.

The Greater Gain High Ground now allows you to move each GG 2 spaces instead of 1. I'm thinking this might be incentive to play Torver with the GGs.

The Boulder Throw is now before attacking and dropped the roll needed for wounds to 11 or higher. So yes, he does get a sort of double attack.

I set his points at 140.

Sounds good.  I think it is okay to move the GG's 2 spaces on Torver's turn.  Normally if the GG's take a turn - three of them have moved 3 than the + 1.  In this case, all of them get to move 2 spaces which is certainly strong - but not broken.  And you are right - it is a reason to have Torver and he won't stack with Warden 816, so not a broken combo.

You can also plan to give the Stone Giant uncommon hero the Gain the High Ground power ~ so Torver can assist his stone-giant Buddies.


I think you should drop the third power against specials.  It will keep his points down.  And maybe bump his attack down to 4 .. I think that keeps him in the 140 range.

You might also consider a Ranged boost for Dauntless figures - like the Deathwalker 9000's boost for Utgar Guards. Maybe he can give GG's that are adjacent + 2 range (so Range 3 if they don't have height and range 5 if they have height + adjacent to Torver). Helps make up for the slow moving GG's.

Torver from OP:

Spoiler:

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: Torver (I went with the stats in the OP, but at 140).

THEME TEST: PASS

FUN TEST: PASS - giving Torver essentially a double attack made him a big threat. With the GGs getting a move of 2, it even made them much more fun to play with.

FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Hmm. Torver being able to throw a GG and attack with the GG, and then Torver attacks - pretty powerful to face.

USAGE TEST: Did not use Rock Tough - no special attacks for Team Tor-Kul-Na. All of the other powers were used. PASS.

STRATEGY TEST: Movement of 2 for GGs was a great addition for the strategy of tagging behind Torver . . . the GGs were heard shouting, "throw me! throw me!" Torver was able to use the throw of GGs to hurl over Tork and a Stinger pod to get to the figure on the defense +1 glyph twice. This was a game changer. The roll of 11 for wounds on the throw is too low - I got wounds 3 of the 4 times I hurled Stingers.

BONDING TEST: PASS

SYNERGIES TEST: PASS - the synergy with the GGs made them worthwhile to play with.

POWER CHECK: Not going to break the game, but a couple of things need to be brought down a bit, but I would give Torver a PASS and bump his points to 155/160 as written.

DRAFTING TEST: Draft him - fun with GGs. I can't believe how much better the move of 2 made the GGs. I think he would do well even without the GGs.

MIRROR TEST: PASS

ARMY TEST 1

Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary. [insert pass/fail, point value, and brief summary] Summarized above in the comments. I'm going to say FAIL the way the stats/powers are right now and make some tweaks.

Map: Sirocco

Units:

Army 1: Granites x3, Torver, Zetacron = 500 points

VS

Army 2: Stingers x4, Nagrubs x1, Tor-Kul-Na, Isamu = 500 points

Rd 1. Both the Stingers and the Granites split to height on each side of the board. One GG died. Stingers rolled great def.

Rd 2. 2 GGs and 3 Stingers were killed. Torver killed one with his throw and another with his attack. Tor-Kul-Na and Grubs ran to the opposite hill from Torver to try to retake the def+1 glyph.

Rd 3. The GG on the glyph got trampled by Tork. 3 Stingers were killed . . . a GG was thrown and then attacked with range (this needs to be fixed).

Rd 4. A GG and 2 Stingers died (throw and attack in one turn by Torver). Both sides were hot with the def dice. Torver is wounded by a Stinger.

Rd 5. A GG is trampled while a Grub scurries back to the Def glyph Tork vacated. Tork and Torver went head-to-head . . . defense stayed hot. Tork got 1 wound, but snacked to get back to full life.

Rd 6. A GG killed the Grub on Def+1, and then 3 Stingers failed in their attack on the GG. Torver rolled a perfect 5/5 attack for 4 wounds on Tork. Tork wounded Torver for 1 wound. Torver rolled 4/5 skulls, but Tork responded with 4 shields. Tork clubbed Torver with a 4/6 skull roll, but Torver rolled 4 shields! Lots of blue dice in this battle.

Rd 7. Team Granites won initiative and this was the turning point. GGs kill 2 Stingers, included the one on the Def glyph. Tork placed 2 wounds on Torver who was down to his last life. Torver then brought Tork down to his last life and then killed him on his next turn. Tork lost his OM#3.

Rd 8. The last Stinger took out a GG but then Torver tossed the Stinger like a rag doll for the kill. Isamu was left, but I didn't want to see him Vanish for the next 30 minutes and take out the 153 points the Granites had left (Zeta, 2 GG, and 1 life left Torver).

Final thoughts: I'm going to tweak a few things and try to get Torver's points down to 130.

I've updated the OP with some changes.

Nomad wrote:

BOULDER THROW
After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver to throw. Place the chosen figure on any empty space within 5 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll a 11 15 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds 1 wound. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. If the thrown figure is a Dauntless figure you control, do not roll for throwing damage and you may immediately attack with the thrown figure's normal attack. If the thrown figure is a Dauntless figure you control, after placing the figure, immediately choose 1 enemy figure adjacent to the thrown figure and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen enemy figure receives 1 wound. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

I like that you changed the "damage" of friendly boulder throws to a d20. I think that helps eliminate any questions about a figure taking a turn to attack on another figure's order marker/turn.


So the Boulder Throw is automatic -- you can pick up and throw any small/medium non-flyer. This is different than Jotun who rolls to "grab and throw" at 14 but then needs an 11 to inflict 2 wounds. Torver can always "throw" but has a harder time inflicting the wound.

You might get some push-back from the Heroscapers community on that.

Shurrak needs a 14 or higher on his Knockback and moves the figure 3 spaces.
Jotun needs 14 as well, and can throw 4 spaces.
Arashara Goshiri (c3v) needs an 11 or higher for her "swap two figures" (though for 200 points I don't think she should have to roll).

BUT ...
the Wyvern doesn't roll for Talon Grab.
Warforged can automatically move their target with Tactical Switch



What would you say to throwing friendly figures does not require a roll, but the initial throw of an enemy figure is a 14 or higher? Otherwise Torver can easily chuck figures into Molten Lava ; )

Yes - it is automatic. It has been that way since the initial concept of the fastball special, which is also automatic. I tried versions of the throw that included the need to do a 20-sider, but when combined with the fastball special aspect, it made the power too long. I figured that since it was it was a slightly more difficult to get a wound, instead of 2 wounds for Jotun's throw - it would work out.

But, I never once considered throwing a hero into lava for an instant kill. Yes - this needs to be changed.

Let's try this:

BOULDER THROW
After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, you may throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 spaces of clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. If you choose to throw a Dauntless figure you control, you do not need to roll the 20-sided die and may immediately place the figure. Choose 1 enemy figure adjacent to the thrown Dauntless figure and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen enemy figure receives 1 wound. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks.

So, it is exactly the same as Jotun's throw. I fear that it will be too long to fit an a card though. Yep - I just checked and it is too long to fit on a card. I will try to shorten it somehow.

BOULDER THROW
After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks. Throwing friendly Dauntless figures does not require the 20-sided die roll. After you throw a friendly Dauntless figure, choose 1 enemy figure adjacent to the thrown figure. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen enemy figure receives 1 wound.

This fits. How does it read?

BOULDER THROW
After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks. Throwing friendly Dauntless figures does not require a the 20-sided die roll. If the thrown figure is Dauntless, choose 1 opponent's figure adjacent to the thrown figure. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen enemy figure receives 1 wound.

(without strike-through)
BOULDER THROW
After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, throw the figure by placing it on any space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks. Throwing friendly figures does not require a die roll. If the thrown figure is Dauntless, choose 1 opponent's figure adjacent to the thrown figure. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen enemy figure receives 1 wound.


Tried to shorten it a bit.

I kind of wanted it so that only Dauntless figures got the free throw. You would still have to roll to see if you can throw a different friendly, but you don't have to roll for throwing damage.

The way it was written before fit on the card.

BOULDER THROW
After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks. Throwing friendly Dauntless figures does not require the 20-sided die roll. After you throw a friendly Dauntless figure, choose 1 enemy figure adjacent to the thrown figure. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 15 or higher, the chosen enemy figure receives 1 wound.

how about

BOULDER THROW
After moving and before attacking, choose 1 small or medium non-flying figure adjacent to Torver. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 14 or higher, throw the figure by placing it on any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Torver. After the figure is placed, you may roll the 20-sided die for throwing damage. If you roll an 11 or higher, the thrown figure receives 2 wounds. If the figure is thrown onto a level higher than the height of Torver or onto water, do not roll for throwing damage. The thrown figure does not take any leaving engagement attacks. If the thrown figure is a friendly Dauntless figure do not roll for throw or throwing damage.  After placing the friendly Dauntless figure you may choose an adjacent figure and roll the 20-sided die.  If you roll a 15 (or 14?) or higher, the chosen figure receives 1 wound.

I like it. Much simpler - well done.

15 = 30% chance of a wound
14 = 35% chance of a wound

We can come up with a final number for the wound as we play test to make sure we get Torver to 130 points. If he is not worthy, we could go all the way down to an 11. If he is too strong, we could go all the way to an 18.

Nice, Derek!!

Yeah, I think sticking with 14 for the Throw and the wound makes it easier, and I like a better chance for the wound : )

This guy is going to turn out awesome Damon. Great job LDing, going directions you didn't plan. This guy will be worth it in the end. From the original e-mail (back in January) till now you've done awesome.

Thanks, Derek. And there was a ton more we could have done with all of the ideas we've had. You guys have amazing ideals! I really like where he is at, but I'll need to do some play testing.

I hope you noticed that I dropped his def to 3 and gave him an auto-shield against all attacks. This actually is better than a straight defense of 5, although not as good against specials compared to when he had 5 def and auto against SA only.

I haven't tested him yet this way, so that it is still up in the air.

Doing a 14 for both the throw and a 14 for getting a wound from your GG when thrown makes sense. I'll change it to 14 for testing. Maybe tomorrow.

Damon wrote:I hope you noticed that I dropped his def to 3 and gave him an auto-shield against all attacks. This actually is better than a straight defense of 5, although not as good against specials compared to when he had 5 def and auto against SA only.

I did notice. (Not my favorite but it is good, I would prefer 4 defense and auto against specials but not a deal breaker either way.) Still turning out to be a solid character in unexpected ways. I am liking him quite a bit (although I haven't played with him yet.)

I have updated the OP with the latest thoughts and wording. Thank you for your input!

I will play at these numbers and let you know the results.

I'm slightly upset!

I've been typing for over a half-hour on the recent play test I did with Torver with round by round descriptions and official Pass/Fail descriptions. I did some fancy CTRL-SHIFT-KEY something on accident and lost it all. (Warning - do some typing, select all and copy).

It was so detailed . . . I'm crying right now. But, I'm not going to retype everything.

Summary of my summary:

Armies: Skeletons of Annatellia x3, Cyprien, Sonya v. Granite Guadians x3, Torver, Kumiko (both at 510 points).

Final Score: Skeleton Army won with 455 points left. Cyprien didn't even think about playing. Skeletons rolled 16 out of 18 necromancy.

Torver withstood multiple attacks with his defense, moved GGs around the board, and caused multiple strategic decisions for OM placement. Despite the overwhelming defeat, I am still fairly comfortable with how he reads in the OP . . . just a tough battle. I rolled hundreds of dice. Many rounds went by with only 1 or 2 figures dead due to the high defenses (Skeletons controlled the Def+1 for most of the battle).

Conclusions - maybe make his throw easier to pull off. Torver is a stud with 3 def + auto. Other than that . . . let's try again tomorrow.

Sorry that you lost your post. That has happened to me, so I would recommend if you are doing a long detailed post to type it in a Word.doc first and then cut/paste over.


Sounds like you have been having lots of fun with Play-Testing! I'm almost back at 100% health so I can venture out soon.


For Boulder Throw, did you find yourself Throwing GG's more than enemy figures?