W3 Doggin Trackers- Released.

I prefer to stay away from straight bonding with Dund.

I really like the power - makes Dund much better. He fried me on our playtest by losing three OMs on Agent Carr.

Sad to see disengage leave.

Timing/Rules question on Dund:

CRIPPLING GAZE 15
Before moving, you may choose a figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Dund.  Roll the 20-sided die.  If you roll a 15 or higher remove all order markers on the chosen figure's army card (or cards).

For this power ... wouldn't Dund be allowed to use Crippling Gaze *before* he moves?  

TRACKING
After taking a turn with the Doggin Trackers, you may move 1 tricky hunter hero or 1 tricky hunter squad you control up to 6 spaces.


Perhaps, similar to Zaeus:

TRACKING
After taking a turn with the Doggin Trackers, you may take a turn with 1 tricky hunter hero you control.  The hunter hero may not attack during this turn.


This makes it clear that Dund can take a turn and use Crippling Gaze.  I don't think that Nomad is in favor of that, but just in case.

as per the wording on Dund's card you are correct that he can use Crippling Gaze before moving via the Tracker Hound's movement bonding.  This makes baiting ridiculously superfluous.  So let's drop baiting (which was a little complicated anyways) and go back to Disengage which I really want to keep anyways.

Name- Tracker Hounds
unique squad
class- Tracker
species- Doggin
personality- Tricky
size- large
height- 4 or 5
life- 1
move- 7
range- 1
attack- 3
defense- 4
Points- 120

TRACKING
After taking a turn with the Tracker Hounds, you may move 1 tricky hunter hero or 1 tricky hunter squad you control up to 6 spaces.

TRACKER AMBUSH
When attacking with the Tracker Hounds, if the defending figure has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, you may add one attack die for each additional Doggin engaged with the defending figure.

DISENGAGE
Tracker Hounds are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

On the Tracking power I am still not sure we shouldn't have a final distance limit from the tracker hounds.  Maybe
TRACKING
After taking a turn with the Tracker Hounds, you may move 1 Tricky Hunter Hero or 1 Tricky Hunter Squad you control up to 6 spaces.  Any figure moved by Tracking must end it's movement within 5 spaces of a Tracker Hound you control.

Good catch on the wording on Dund's card.

And I think the disengage power makes these guys worth their points.

Derek wrote:On the Tracking power I am still not sure we shouldn't have a final distance limit from the tracker hounds.  Maybe
TRACKING
After taking a turn with the Tracker Hounds, you may move 1 Tricky Hunter Hero or 1 Tricky Hunter Squad you control up to 6 spaces.  Any figure moved by Tracking must end it's movement within 5 spaces of a Tracker Hound you control.

Let's play test them both ways. On an official map, most times it won't matter. I can see wanting to keep the pack of Doggins in a pack, close to each other. But, Doggins are pretty smart. They may charge in a pack planning to have one, Dund, head to the other side of the map (more than 5 spaces away). It really depends how smart we think the Doggin are in their strategy. I'm leaning toward removing the space limitation.

The Baiting power sounds cool . . . maybe we can do some form of it for the common puppies.

Amazing how one sub-par figure (Dund) can result in a whole faction.

Yeah, the no limit- limit won't matter much in the standard game. I still wonder if it is better to keep the limit but am most willing to follow your guys suggestions and go without. If it proves to advantageous to have no limit and these guys feel more than 120, maybe we put the limit back in to keep them at 120 or less. And still we got to keep in mind the possibility of a common squad (or another Tricky Hero) with these guys.

Check out this "Harpy" common hero from Scytale. Similar ideas/powers to the Doggin' ... might give you some ideas.


https://2img.net/h/i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j366/Scytale5901/Screeching_Harpy_zps14c364a5.jpg

My two cents . . . I preferred the name Doggin Trackers.

And then Doggin Hounds for a common squad.

Changed back to Doggin Trackers.

I know this is very preliminary, but I couldn't resist getting these beautiful sculpts on a card . . . and I'm not satisfied with the positioning on the basic side.

Wow, looks awesome.

DUDE! that card looks amazing! Great job on the figure pics!

How about this for a change:

Original:
TRACKER AMBUSH
When attacking with the Tracker Hounds, if the defending figure has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, you may add one attack die for each additional Doggin engaged with the defending figure.


Suggestion:
TRACKER AMBUSH
When figures you control attack an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, add one attack die if there is at least one Doggin engaged with the defending figure.  If the attacking figure is a Doggin, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled instead.


This suggestion could be playing off of the "tricky" and/or "baiting" concept of the Doggin, and since this is a Unique squad, they can help support other units even when they aren't at full strength. If they'll be double-spaced, then they could engage multiple targets easier.

I was thinking about these guys this morning and wondering what Army builds they go with. Here are some thoughts:

Option 1
Dund ... 110
Doggin Trackers ... 230
Agent Skahen ... 350
MicroCorp Troopers (c3v) x2 ... 510
= 510

Option 2
Dund ... 110
Doggin Trackers ... 230
MicroCorp Troopers (c3v) x3 ... 470
Guilty McCreech ... 500
= 500

Option 3
Dund ... 110
Doggin Trackers ... 230
WarForged Soldiers x3 ... 470
Guilty McCreech ... 500
= 500


All of these options have difficult Order Marker Management. I think that can be a problem that Vydar has - and though c3v tried to help with the Command Courier - that figure is horrible (in my opinion). So while we don't need to fix OM management with these Doggin, maybe that is a future Vydar unit.

Since this unit is a Unique Squad, maybe we can point them closer to 100 to start. Basically they help Dund, but at 110 points, Dund is over-priced. Maybe we "under-price" the Doggin Trackers (like 80-90 points) to help compensate. Think about how awesome the Marro Warriors are for 50-points : )

Original:
TRACKER AMBUSH
When attacking with the Tracker Hounds, if the defending figure has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, you may add one attack die for each additional Doggin engaged with the defending figure.


Suggestion:
TRACKER AMBUSH
When figures you control attack an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card, add one attack die if there is at least one Doggin engaged with the defending figure. If the attacking figure is a Doggin, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled instead.

I could see aiding Hunter figures, but I am real hesitant to make catch all fixers/aiders. Very few heroscape units do that (Raelin, Taelord). I am OK with these guys being somewhat of a niche unit. I think 80 or 90 is way undercosted, maybe 110, maybe 100- which I still think might be pushing them into A+ range, but we can figure points out as playtesting starts. As for the suggestion, what do you think about

TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

This would give these guys an automatic skull when attacking a figure without revealed order markers even if no other Doggin Trackers were adjacent, I think per the language.

TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

Sounds cool. The limit to Hunter/Tracker is a good balance.

I have tweaked some of the wording slightly and changed the format of the characteristics of the Doggin Trackers. The change in format will make it easier to copy and paste to HS and in revising the card and it would be great to change the OP to reflect those changes to the format.

Let us know what you think about the changes in wording to the powers. I am suggesting a change to Large 6 - on their hind legs they can reach up quite a bit.

I vote to change these guys to "Play Testing" - even though we have already done some already. I love these Doggins!

DOGGIN TRACKERS

Figures- Confrontation, Creatures of Dirz, Syhar Sighthounds Unit Box

General: Vydar
Planet: Feylund

Species- Doggin
Unique Squad
Class: Tracker
Personality: Tricky
Large 6

Life: 1
Move: 7
Range: 1
Attack: 3
Defense: 4
120 Points

TRACKING
After taking a turn with the Doggin Trackers, you may move 1 Tricky Hunter Hero or 1 Tricky Hunter Squad you control up to 6 spaces.

TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

DISENGAGE
Doggin Trackers are never attacked when leaving an engagement.

TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

The automatic skull might be a little powerful, although I like it. Maybe we should explore, rolls 1 additional attack die. I'll update the OP and title.

Derek S wrote:TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

The automatic skull might be a little powerful, although I like it.  Maybe we should explore, rolls 1 additional attack die.  I'll update the OP and title.

An auto-skull is powerful but there are two conditions before it happens - 1. No OM's and 2. Adjacent to Doggin - so I think it is balanced.

I don't think it will be too bad for other hunters/trackers, but with the Doggin themselves and disengage, move 7, 3 attack with 1 auto skull I think could be pretty powerful, especially against bonding heroes and the like.

Derek S wrote:I don't think it will be too bad for other hunters/trackers, but with the Doggin themselves and disengage, move 7, 3 attack with 1 auto skull I think could be pretty powerful, especially against bonding heroes and the like.

I haven't play tested them myself yet, but I think it will be okay. Opponent's can just drop an "X" OM on their bonded Hero to counter, so you'll really need Dund to be removing X OM's > but I'm guessing instead you'd go for the squad for Numbered OM's.

As it reads now, the Doggin would receive an auto skull on anyone they attack that does not have a revealed order marker, so the X would be no good. But I do like it and am willing to give it a go, just a little nervous about what this could do to their points.

Well then, the X might be good. It might force the opponent to reveal the X marker on a figure/squad early in the round just to prevent that extra auto skull. Very interesting strategic dilemma . . . I like it.

Derek S wrote:As it reads now, the Doggin would receive an auto skull on anyone they attack that does not have a revealed order marker, so the X would be no good.  But I do like it and am willing to give it a go, just a little nervous about what this could do to their points.

DOH! Sorry I missed the "revealed" part and read it as "does not have an order marker ... " My bad.

TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

I'm still okay with it. I am busy all weekend, but I should be able to get a play-test during next week.

If this proves too powerful, without changing much we could word it like this.

TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to 1 or more Doggin Trackers you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

TRACKER AMBUSH
When a Hunter or Tracker you control attacks an opponent's figure that has no revealed Order Markers on their Army Card and is adjacent to at least 1 other Doggin Tracker you control, add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

the intent being that you would need 2 Doggin Trackers next to the same figure to get the bonus, but I think I prefer the current version over this. We could also explore dropping their attack to 2 if it proves too powerful for them.

So, we haven't really changed anything since our play tests months ago (I think we got 5 games in or so). I feel pretty comfortable with the powers/stats. We will want to get in more tests, of course.