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    W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

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    considering some changes, Click on the wants you want

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    Total Votes: 4
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:19 pm

    Planet- Feylund
    General- Aquilla
    Figures Used- Confrontation Demon Hunters
    Common Squad
    Hunters
    Relentless
    Medium 5
    Life 1
    Move 6
    Range 5
    Attack 2
    Defense 3
    Points-80

    DEMON HUNTERS
    Fearless
    Medium 5
    Life 1
    Move 6
    Range 5
    Attack 2
    Defense 3
    Points- 90 {going with 90 since they always have double-attack in this build}


    I do like Fearless better here.

    Dedicated to the Cause?
    When attacking an adjacent figure, add 1 attack die. After attacking an adjacent figure, a Demon Hunter may attack one additional time against any Demon or Undead figure even if they are still engaged.

    Dedicated to the Cause
    When attacking an undead or demon figure, Demon Hunters add 1 to their attack.  When defending against an attack by an undead or demon figure, add 1 to their defense.  After attacking an adjacent figure, a Demon Hunter may attack one additional time.  That additional attack may be against any Demon or Undead figure even if they are still engaged.


    The bonus for attacking an adjacent figure comes from the sword which always has a better attack than bullets in heroscape.  I think making them a 3x4 with a double attack against demons and undead makes them an even greater counter than previously stated, which you said you didn't think was fun so I am a bit confused here.  Demon Hunters should be a counter to Demons though, which is why they got the 2nd attack against them.  We can give them double attack against all characters if you both want to though (1st vote).

    Study In the Arts of Evil
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives any bonuses from glyph's, height, terrain, or special powers when attacking or defending against a Demon Hunter.  When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll must be reduced by 2.

    Study In the Arts of Evil
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives any bonuses from special powers when attacking or defending against a Demon Hunter.  When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll must be reduced by 2.


    I agree that the height could get lost/forgotten in game play so I have no problem here, although I do think it fits thematically as Demon hunters are used to battling creatures with flying, super powers who always come at them from above, yet they can counter it (2nd vote).  Terrain fits here as well.  I think thematically Demon hunters look to the unexpected and can oft see creatures where others wouldn't. (3rd vote).

    Glyphs I understand what you are saying, but don't demon hunters study their adversaries so well that they know their powers, magic, etc. so much that they turn part demon themselves?  I like this one as well thematically but will through it up for vote.  (4th vote)


    Fearless in the Face of Evil
    A Demon Hunter may never have his attack, defense or move reduced by any special powers listed on an opponents card.

    Fearless in the Face of Evil
    A Demon Hunter may never have his attack, defense or move reduced by any special powers listed on an opponents card.


    This one sounds like it is ok.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:22 pm

    First vote is up. I will move to the 2nd when everyone has voted. We can discuss it here. The first vote is for double attack against anyone. I think it fits the sculpt, as long as 1 attack is always against an adjacent figure, and will help them with their playability outside of being a counter to the demon/undead faction.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:29 pm

    I vote for the 3rd option.

    Let's go with what you prefer, play test it, and adjust if necessary.

    OK, I'm leaning toward a double attack against all, with the second out of engagement.

    Some thoughts:

    Kai wrote:I am also a little concerned about making a unit that basically neuters a particular monster type. We don't do a lot of drafting, but I wouldn't want to be the person in the mood for Cyprien or marching out the Deathknights in a casual game, only to be perfectly countered by these Hunters

    There are all kinds of counters to draft that are already in the game. I have no problem with these guys being a counter niche squad. Just my opinion. Heck, I ran an all demon army against the Demon Hunters twice and won both! I didn't think it neutered my army to that great of an extent.

    Kai wrote:I have reservations about countering the power of Glyphs. Purely from a story background, if we allow the Demon Hunters to cancel the effects of a glyph that would be a high level of power. Glyphs are a magical construct that can affect an entire army and I think they represent some of the greatest magic in the world of Valhalla. To say that the Demon Hunters can counter that might imply that they have more power than the Arch-Kyrie.

    I do have to say that these guys would be pretty powerful if they could by-pass any power given by a glyph to Undead, etc. But, it has been done before - see Gladiatrons and X-17 . . . and I don't consider these soulborgs to be more powerful than the Arch-Kyrie. That being said, I'd rather see them without the ability to by-pass glyph powers.

    Derek wrote:I agree that the height could get lost/forgotten in game play so I have no problem here, although I do think it fits thematically as Demon hunters are used to battling creatures with flying, super powers who always come at them from above, yet they can counter it (2nd vote). Terrain fits here as well. I think thematically Demon hunters look to the unexpected and can oft see creatures where others wouldn't.

    Hmm - I understand your point. I also understand Kai's point about making them a challenge to play. With the Troopers, they don't give up height to all opponents. With the Demon Hunters, it would only be against Undead, etc., so it adds another layer of complexity . . . plus, doesn't the +1 defense kind of already help against demons, etc. I like the argument that they have power into the shadows and can see into the jungle trees against undead, etc . . . I'm still on the fence on these two issues and will do some homework.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:22 pm

    How about:

    DEMON HUNTERS
    Fearless
    Medium 5
    Life 1
    Move 6
    Range 5
    Attack 2
    Defense 3
    Points- 90 {going with 90 since they always have double-attack in this build}

    Dual Weapon Style
    After attacking an adjacent figure, a Demon Hunter may attack one additional time. That additional attack may be against any Demon or Undead figure even if they are still engaged.

    Fearless in the Face of Evil
    When attacking an undead or demon figure, Demon Hunters add 1 to their attack. A Demon Hunter may never have his attack, defense or move reduced by any special powers listed on an opponents card.

    Blessing against the Dark Arts
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives any bonuses from height advantage or their special powers when attacking or defending against a Demon Hunter. When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll must be reduced by 2.

    --

    Makes them 3/3 against Demons and Undead, and those species do not receive bonuses for Height Advantage or Special Powers. Noted that they don't receive bonuses for their special powers - so Raelin could still boost them.

    They have double attack against any species provided they first make a melee attack.

    Changed some of the powers names and placement around.


    Let me know if I am messing with this figure too much.

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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:55 pm

    Kai wrote:Let me know if I am messing with this figure too much.

    I don't even consider that, they are our customs, not mine- so every thought should be put out there, and we all should decide which way is the best to go.

    Damon wrote:I vote for the 3rd option.

    Let's go with what you prefer, play test it, and adjust if necessary.
    .

    Repeating above, they are our customs so we all should have a say in how the character ends up.  Not just this is what I prefer so let's not look at the different options and see how it turns out.

    That being said, I want to discuss the pro's/con's of changes specifically, not make blanket changes until we all decide what should/shouldn't be included in the design.  Then we can move forward with wording of powers and playtesting.

    Damon wrote:Hmm - I understand your point. I also understand Kai's point about making them a challenge to play. With the Troopers, they don't give up height to all opponents. With the Demon Hunters, it would only be against Undead, etc., so it adds another layer of complexity . . . plus, doesn't the +1 defense kind of already help against demons, etc. I like the argument that they have power into the shadows and can see into the jungle trees against undead, etc . . . I'm still on the fence on these two issues and will do some homework.

    The problem here is that they don't have a +1 attack or defense in the OP so they don't get that bonus unless we decide that they do.  This is part of the reason I want to go through things individually without making blanket changes.

    Lastly, his adjacent attack using a sword, should be greater than his ranged pistol attack to follow heroscape.  This one I really think should be kept.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:04 pm

    Please bear with me . . . this is a long post. Great ideas presented so far - I really like the collaborative effort on figures!

    I've been doing some research on figures in Heroscape who have powers/counters against specific other classes, species, type, etc (includes v. Huge/Large, Uniques, Squads, Undead, Jandar, soulborgs, ranged units, melee units, flyers, non-flyers, non-lava resistant, and on and on).

    Here is my conclusion:

    At most, there is only one power on any Army Card the specifically affects another type/class/species/etc.

    My opinion is that we stay consistent with HS tradition and give the Demon Hunters only ONE power against demons and undead. The rest of their powers should apply to all other figures. This is my opinion, but it has become fairly strong the more I think about it.

    The three basic powers presented so far are:
    1) Double attack, range when engaged v. Demons and Undead
    2) No attacking bonuses for Demons and Undead when attacking/defending Demon Hunters. 20-sider reduced by 2.
    3) No reduction in attack and defense for Demon Hunters from opponents powers

    A 4th option was that Demons get plus one attack and/or defense against demons and undead.

    For me:
    1) Double attack should be against all figures, the added bonus of shooting out of range against demons/undead is nice, but I think we should drop it.
    2) Roll the 2nd and 3rd powers into one and make it against Demons/Undead only. Add +1 attack against demons/undead.

    I know we are losing a bit, but this is a common squad. With a double attacking common squad, it is still going to be pretty awesome. So, I kinda of like where Kai was heading in his last post, I would just roll the last two powers into one.

    OK, here is my proposal for you to consider:

    SHADOW STALKERS OF KRESNIK See Van Nessing's bio: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?p=1480767

    Planet: Feylund
    General: Aquilla

    Species: Hybrid (bordering between elf/human and demonic)
    Type: Common Squad (3)
    Class: Hunter
    Personality: Fearless
    Size: Medium 5

    Life 1
    Move 6
    Range 5
    Attack 2
    Defense 3
    Points 80

    DOUBLE ATTACK
    When each Shadow Stalker of Kresnik attacks, he may attack one additional time.

    (Same wording as Einar Imperium, the only other squad with double attack).

    FEARLESS IN THE FACE OF EVIL
    When a Shadow Stalker of Kresnik attacks an Undead or Demon figure, add 1 to his Attack Value. Demon and Undead figures never receive any height, terrain, or special power dice bonuses when attacking or defending against a Shadow Stalker of Kresnik. If a Demon or Undead figure within 6 spaces of a Shadow Stalker of Kresnik rolls the 20-sided die, you may reduce the roll by 2.

    (Combines the other two powers. We don't want Marcu to reduce his roll by 2, so I included may. I also limited the range a bit).
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:33 pm


    Wow, good find, sir!!

    the ranks of the Kresnik, an elite group dedicated to hunting the forces of darkness that roam Feylund
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:40 pm

    I love the name and it sounds like a keeper. Great research.

    I really like the fact of pulling up that there is only 1 power that counters. Awesome research.

    Perhaps the last couple of proposals is where we would end up at anyways but I still feel like there is much to be gained by going through each option and not making blanket changes.

    The one thing I will not get past is the figure itself. They have a sword in one hand and a gun in the other. Swords always have a bigger attack value than guns. Let alone swords don't have range, so I don't see how a straight double attack is fitting. And now, the shadow stalkers of Kresnik are vulnerable to many of the detriments listed on Demon and other cards.

    If we want to make blanket changes let me know, pick one that has been presented, I'll change the OP and we can brainstorm from there.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:01 am

    Yeah, for Double Attack - I agree - it should be conditional on making a melee attack first.

    So you can Shoot once at Range, or attack once in melee and then get a second attack. Thematically it could be a double-strike with the sword if there are two adjacent figures or a slash & bang sort of technique.

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:08 am

    Thanks, I like the tie in with Van Nessing too.

    Derek wrote:The one thing I will not get past is the figure itself. They have a sword in one hand and a gun in the other. Swords always have a bigger attack value than guns. Let alone swords don't have range, so I don't see how a straight double attack is fitting.

    I'm just throwing out ideas.

    Let's give them a +1 attack in melee or a -1 attack in range. What about a 2 attack base and +1 attack with an engaged figure? We can rename the double attack to something else.

    Derek wrote:And now, the shadow stalkers of Kresnik are vulnerable to many of the detriments listed on Demon and other cards

    I'm not sure what detriments you are thinking about. Other than eliminating being able to shoot out of engagement against demons/undead I didn't remove any detriments, just combined them into one. I'm sure I missed something though.

    I did suggest we remove the power that their attack/defense is not affected by any power by all figures, not just demon/undead. This is pretty powerful and think it might be used as a power for future creations, but I'm not so sure for a common squad that already has a double attack.

    Derek wrote:If we want to make blanket changes let me know, pick one that has been presented,

    I didn't think I was making blanket changes at all. Sorry. I don't want to pick one, I'm just throwing out ideas for us to consider.

    I tend to think as the figure as a whole, not separate components.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:17 am

    Derek wrote:And now, the shadow stalkers of Kresnik are vulnerable to many of the detriments listed on Demon and other cards



    I
    Damon wrote:'m not sure what detriments you are thinking about. Other than eliminating being able to shoot out of engagement against demons/undead I didn't remove any detriments, just combined them into one. I'm sure I missed something though.

    I did suggest we remove the power that their attack/defense is not affected by any power by all figures, not just demon/undead. This is pretty powerful and think it might be used as a power for future creations, but I'm not so sure for a common squad that already has a double attack.


    Damons proposal wrote:FEARLESS IN THE FACE OF EVIL
    When a Shadow Stalker of Kresnik attacks an Undead or Demon figure, add 1 to his Attack Value. Demon and Undead figures never receive any height, terrain, or special power dice bonuses when attacking or defending against a Shadow Stalker of Kresnik. If a Demon or Undead figure within 6 spaces of a Shadow Stalker of Kresnik rolls the 20-sided die, you may reduce the roll by 2.

    Damon post n 5 wrote:I would like it if somewhere they were immune to any special powers Demons might inflict on them (Miasma Cloud, Mezzo's +1 against Squadies, Harpies strike, Skull Demons +1 attack, etc.)

    Derek post n 13 wrote:The last power is what makes them immune to Chelas cloud, Mezzo's common attack reducer, the bigger demon's fear defense reducer. Very important to the theme I think. Definitely ups their cost. Also gives them a little counter playability against Zelrig and a few others.

    The other power keeps the demon/ undead faction from getting bonuses against the demon hunters, which fits the theme as well. If we were to drop one I would be in favor of this power, and upping the base defense of these guys.

    Damon post n 15 wrote:OK, I see the intent of the 3rd power. Thanks for clarifying.

    The wording of the power doesn't give the demons or such added die bonuses, but SSof Kresnik still are affected by reductions.

    So what I am thinking is that these guys are taking a different direction from earlier thought, we are forgetting aspects of how they got to where they are, or we want to go in a different direction.  

    I have to be completely honest here, I am listening to every suggestion and responding to every suggestion and putting changes to a vote.  If we want to make blanket changes and decide which is best let me know.  If we want to struggle through it where we all have input then let's do it.  But I am confused when in post #10 somebody says they want this, and then in post # 25 they want it a different way.  

    Should I rewrite the powers taking what I want, or should we all work through them to get where we want (I know this sounds harsher than it is intended, making suggestions to written powers is part of the process, but in this case we are going too many directions for me to lead, which is why I want us to break it down individually before rewriting the powers blanketedly).

    My only goal is that we end up with a card that we all think is perfect, so keep the ideas coming (we are in brainstorming after all).  I really am enjoying the creativity here and don't want to stiffle it, so if doing a blanket rewrite is best for you keep doing it and I'll keep pulling up past posts and my thoughts.

    Damon wrote:
    Let's give them a +1 attack in melee or a -1 attack in range. What about a 2 attack base and +1 attack with an engaged figure? We can rename the double attack to something else.

    That is why the OP has them getting a +1 attack against adjacent figures.  This might be altered to if you attack an adjacent figure 1st add 1 to your attack die, and on your 2nd attack roll 1 less die.

    Kai wrote:Yeah, for Double Attack - I agree - it should be conditional on making a melee attack first.

    So you can Shoot once at Range, or attack once in melee and then get a second attack. Thematically it could be a double-strike with the sword if there are two adjacent figures or a slash & bang sort of technique.

    I think everyone has voted for the double attack against all figures (only 2 in the poll though).  I will move to the next option unless someone disagrees.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:51 am

    Yep - sorry, I did miss something. I wasn't trying to double speak. I forgot to mention reductions to dice rolls in my proposal, good catch. I do want to see this included.

    Again, I was just throwing some thoughts out there.

    I really didn't think my proposal was a blanket change of everything, I was just trying to build on the ideas of others in the initial design stage and bring in my efforts on reading through the cards of other figures.

    Derek wrote:I have to be completely honest here, I am listening to every suggestion and responding to every suggestion and putting changes to a vote. If we want to make blanket changes and decide which is best let me know. If we want to struggle through it where we all have input then let's do it. But I am confused when in post #10 somebody says they want this, and then in post # 25 they want it a different way.

    Sorry. When ideas are presented and discussed and thought about . . . opinions change. Please don't hold me to something I said in post #10, because in post #25 I may have a different thought based on the thoughts of others, reflection, and research done in the 14 posts in between.

    I will give you a call tomorrow and we can discuss the process.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:14 am

    Damon wrote:
    Sorry. When ideas are presented and discussed and thought about . . . opinions change. Please don't hold me to something I said in post #10, because in post #25 I may have a different thought based on the thoughts of others, reflection, and research done in the 14 posts in between.

    I will give you a call tomorrow and we can discuss the process.

    in response to

    Derek wrote:I have to be completely honest here, I am listening to every suggestion and responding to every suggestion and putting changes to a vote. If we want to make blanket changes and decide which is best let me know. If we want to struggle through it where we all have input then let's do it. But I am confused when in post #10 somebody says they want this, and then in post # 25 they want it a different way.


    No need to be sorry- I'm making sure I don't miss anything in leading, past and present to get the best design. My next two lines I hope helped in understanding what I stated

    Derek wrote:Should I rewrite the powers taking what I want, or should we all work through them to get where we want (I know this sounds harsher than it is intended, making suggestions to written powers is part of the process, but in this case we are going too many directions for me to lead, which is why I want us to break it down individually before rewriting the powers blanketedly).

    My only goal is that we end up with a card that we all think is perfect, so keep the ideas coming (we are in brainstorming after all). I really am enjoying the creativity here and don't want to stiffle it, so if doing a blanket rewrite is best for you keep doing it and I'll keep pulling up past posts and my thoughts.

    If you do call me tomorrow, call my cell 713-8895 as I leave at 5 am and won't get home until 6:30-7.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:15 pm

    Alright guys, I got to apologize. I was trying to take the design process a different way and that didn't work out to well. I'll stop with the poll vote's and lead to how I think will be best. Some things might get lost/unacknowledged this way but it seems more like method that would work best. My next post will take the last few poss into consideration. In no way way did I want the brainstorming process to end by my previous posts.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:53 pm

    We all seemed to agree to double attack against any figure.  so

    Name Demon stalkers of Kresnik
    Planet- Feylund (I think this is right)
    General- Aquilla (?)
    Figures Used- Confrontation Demon Hunters
    Common Squad- 3 figures
    Hunters
    Fearless
    Medium 5
    Life 1
    Move 6
    Range 5
    Attack 2
    Defense 3
    Points-80  (up for playtesting)

    Awareness of Evil ( I'm still not sure of the power name)
    if a Demon Stalker of Kresnik attacks an adjacent figure with his first attack, add 1 to the attack value for the first attack.  After attacking an adjacent figure a Demon Stalker of Kresnik may attack 1 additional time.  if the demon stalkers of Kresnik attack again, they may target and attack a demon or undead even it they are still engaged.

    Mastery of the Dark Arts
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power bonuses when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik.   A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move altered by an opponents card.   When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll may be reduced by 2.

    hopefully this incorporates most/all of your thoughts. I realize both powers are counters in a way which is not typical in heroscape. We could drop the demon or undead part and make that against anyone if we all think it would be better that way. This leaves out the +1 attack against Demons/Undead that has been proposed. We could make it simpler (maybe a little less themey but more common in heroscape) by going this route

    Mastery of the Dark Arts
    A Demon Stalker of Kresnik adds 1 to his attack value and 1 to his defense value when attacking or defending against a Demon or Undead figure. When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll may be reduced by 2.
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:53 am

    Sounds good to me. Just needs a little word-smithing.

    Can you add a Species? I suggested "Species: Hybrid (bordering between elf/human and demonic)" which is the same as Van Nessing.
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:28 pm

    Hybrid works.

    Mastery of the Dark Arts
    A Demon Stalker of Kresnik adds 1 to his attack value and 1 to his defense value when attacking or defending against a Demon or Undead figure. When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll may be reduced by 2.

    or

    Mastery of the Dark Arts
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power bonuses when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik. A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move altered by an opponents card. When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Hunter, the roll may be reduced by 2.

    which version is liked better?

    In the latter, do we still want too include height, terrain when attacking or defending? Do we want to include the part about the Demon Stalkers of Kresnik having their defense, attack, move altered (should it be only by demons/undead- I know it has been suggested to make it only demons/undead but I am not %100 sold that it should go that way so that is why I am leaving it up-for now).

    In

    Awareness of Evil ( I'm still not sure of the power name)
    if a Demon Stalker of Kresnik attacks an adjacent figure with his first attack, add 1 to the attack value for the first attack. After attacking an adjacent figure a Demon Stalker of Kresnik may attack 1 additional time. if the demon stalkers of Kresnik attack again, they may target and attack a demon or undead even it they are still engaged.

    Do we want to allow them to attack all figures out of engagement or just Demon's/undead.

    If I have missed a suggestion in the previous write ups that I haven't addressed please let me know.

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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:42 pm

    This would be my preference:

    MASTERY OF THE DARK ARTS
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power dice bonuses when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik. A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move altered by an opponent's Demon or Undead Army Card. When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik you control, you may reduce the roll by 2.

    I think that a potential double-attacking common squad would be boosted if ALL figures' powers can't affect them (Zelgrig, Me-Burq-Sa, Gladiatrons, Rechets, Stalkers, Dead-Eye Dan, James Murphy . . . there may be others). But, I will still be happy with it being all powers on all cards. This is going to be a fun squad!

    This would be my preference:

    DUAL WEAPONS
    If a Demon Stalker of Kresnik attacks an adjacent figure with his first attack, add 1 attack die. If the Demon Stalker of Kresnik's first attack was against an adjacent figure, he may attack 1 additional time.

    If played right, I think you could get what you want a good portion of the time (without the shooting out of engagement). A DSofK moves and gets height while engaging one figure. He throws down an attack of 4 with their sword. If he ain't killed, then he can pop him with his revolver for an attack of 3. If he does kick the bucket, then the DSofK can shoot from range with an attack of 3 with height or 2. There is a chance that you would be rolling 21 attack dice in one turn! Yikes. Having two powers that hit a specific species is OK, but I think it goes a little far. For a common squad with this kind of potential, it is pretty awesome.

    Even without the ability to shoot out of range against demons and undead and dropping the part about all figure's special powers, the squad is still starting at 80+ and will probably go up, in my mind. But, I will still be happy with them being able to attack out of engagement against demons/undead. This is going to be a fun squad!

    I'm not trying to trump any designs so far or make blanket changes. These are just my latest thoughts (please disregard previous thoughts). If you decide to do something different, it is all good.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:53 pm

    I think another round of play-testing is in order.  Both against their main enemy - Undead - and against other species.


    Off the top of my head, Undead or Demons that reduce stats:
    Skull Demons (reduce attack from commons by 1)
    Deathknights of Valkrill (reduce defense by 2)
    Chela (reduces move, attack, defense)
    Zombie Hulk (Paralyzing Fear)

    Undead or Demons with special powers that 'target':
    Cyprien (Chill Touch)
    Mezzodemons (Poison Cloud add 1 attack vs commons)
    Phantom Knights (add 3 defense against ranged)
    Retchets (Lethal Sting)


    Non-Undead/Demons:
    Zelrig (commons roll 2 less defense)
    Red Wyrmling (commons roll 2 less defense)
    Quickblade Wolfen (Lightning Slash special attack)
    Goblin Cutters
    Me-Burq-Sa (Paralyzing Stare)
    Retarius (Net Trip)
    James Murphy (Whip)


    I'm okay with always having a double-attack - as long as it is after making a melee attack.  It bumps there points but I think it works.  Dual Wield just makes sense for these guys based on the sculpt.  I don't think that the second attack needs to be against undead/demons.  We could limit it like the Darkclaws or Shaolin where the 2nd attack has to be against a different figure.

    If only undead/demons lose height/terrain/special powers, I'm okay with that.  If they can avoid any reduction in Defense/Attack from any species that really bumps up their points (probably to 100).
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:57 pm

    Yes - we should do some play testing to see what kind of impact the special powers would have.

    By stating my preferences in my previous post in this thread, I realize that it may have seemed designed to be snarky. That is not what I had intended in the least bit. I had just wanted to be clear and I totally understand how that did not come across. Forgiveness?
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:43 pm

    Dropping the 2nd attack may be out of engagement to just a 2nd attack if 1st attack is against an adjacent.  

    The powers of the attacking/defending figure effecting the Demon Stalkers is still up in the air as to if it should only be Demon/Undead.  I would like to have some playtests to see which way would be better.

    OP updated with changes.

    A little concerned that there is too much going on with Mastery of the Dark Arts now that it is 1 power instead of 2. Kind of like the suggestion to separate the Wizards offense and defense die rolling to 2 separate powers.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:46 pm


    The powers of the attacking/defending figure effecting the Demon Stalkers is still up in the air as to if it should only be Demon/Undead. I would like to have some playtests to see which way would be better.


    I think this all comes down to Unit Cost. If you want the Demon Stalkers to be a 110 points Squad, they can have immunity to call figures. That puts them in line with Sentinels of Jandar or Minions of Utgar.

    But they could be less if it was just Demons/Undead (maybe 90).
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    Derek S

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Derek S on Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:03 am

    MASTERY OF THE DARK ARTS
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power dice bonuses when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik. A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move altered by an opponent's Demon or Undead Army Card. When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik you control, you may reduce the roll by 2.

    As I have been thinking about this power there have been a lot of uncertainties raised. Gladiatrons, Raelin (neither the DSoK or a Demon/Undead would get the bonus), and all the others ones listed. It does need to be only demons/undead, but I think that still could leave some questions to mechanics of game play the way it is written- maybe not with existing cards but maybe with future cards. I also think there is too much going on in this power. Although I think it is a fun and thematic power I think it needs to be altered significantly. Hopefully we can come up with something cleaner without losing the themeyness of the power. What do you guys think?
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    Nomad

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Nomad on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:38 am

    Raelin would still give the bonus to Demon Stalkers you control the way it is written . . . it is only opponent's cards that can't do the altering. But, yes - Raelin would not give bonuses to opponent's demon/undead.

    I still really like this unique power and the theme behind the power. I wouldn't mind giving it some more play tests and decide if it should be for all opponents that they can't have their numbers altered or just Demons/Undead. Just how strong it is depends on testing against various armies.

    I was planning on giving them some testing today/tomorrow. I think it is really close.
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    Lord Kai

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

    Post  Lord Kai on Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:54 pm


    How about a little name change ..

    COUNTER THE DARK ARTS
    A Demon or Undead figure never receives height, terrain, or special power dice modifiers when attacking or defending against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik. A Demon Stalker of Kresnik may never have his defense, attack, or move modified by a an opponent's Demon or Undead Army Card. When a Demon or Undead rolls the 20-sided die for a special power against a Demon Stalker of Kresnik you control, you may reduce the roll by 2.


    I'm okay if Raelin doesn't get to modify the Undead or Demons. Basically it is stating that there is no where a Demon or Undead can run & hide : P

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    Re: W1 Shadow Slayers of Kresnik- RELEASED

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